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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Pulse Welding versus Constant Voltage
- - By APM (*) Date 02-24-2008 21:54
Is there any data including cycle testing of Pulse Welding versus Constant Voltage. I need to find out if pulse welding would show any less penetration profile, any different hardness in the HAZ, and difference in cycle test that would indicate pulse welding is inferior to constant voltage.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-24-2008 22:30 Edited 02-24-2008 22:34
APM

Your question is a bit too vague.

Being that there are dozens of different GMAW-P power supplies of varying effectiveness that have been offered on the market over the last 15 years. Some of the new stuff is robust and can do just as advertized. Others are junk and were never able to do what the manufacturers claimed.

Also.. The effectiveness of GMAW-P power supplies will vary depending on type and thickness of material, as well as position, travel speed and all the other usual process control factors.

For example...
GMAW-P can run true spray transfer fillets on 0.050 stainless in the overhead position with complete fusion at the root.... Traditional CV spray transfer would blow holes in that same material in any position.

On the other hand on heavier sections of plain carbon steel in the flat position GMAW-P has been known to have sidewall fusion issues. And some robotic applications have had consistancy issues with high speed synergic GMAW-P.

What about aluminum?  Same story... There is new GMAW-P stuff out there that would put plenty of tig welders out of business if anybody would bother to do a few trials.

I think most of the data you are looking (Penetration profiles, hardness in HAZ and other tests) for can be proven in either direction based on sound or unsound process control.

It has more to do with sound process control, and selecting GMAW-P in the correct setting and Choosing traditional Spray transfer when it is a better engineering choice.
Parent - - By APM (*) Date 02-25-2008 14:21
Sorry for the lack of info. It will be welding on low carbon steels in the 10 to 25mm range. Both .045 and .052 wire dia. will be used along with a 90% Argon/10% CO2 gas mixture. Equipment will be new Lincoln PowerWaves. 
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-25-2008 15:43 Edited 02-25-2008 15:56
Did you visit WeldReality.com??   You really should..

So

10 MM can be approximated about 3/8 inch

25 MM can be approximated as about 1 inch.

I think you could save a boat load of money running E71T-1 FCAW with 100% C02 (although this does not really address your question)
FCAW can be run in all positions
FCAW can be run at much higher depsition rates than GMAW or GMAW-P

For example ESAB 710X 0.045 filler with straight CO2 can be run at 400 ipm vertical up at a deposition rate of just under 8 lbs per hour with 75/25 you can increase the WFS another 50 ipm.
You won't come close to this with GMAW-P

Even though GMAW-P can be run in all positions, its out of position deposition rates will not equal FCAW on the materials and thicknesses you have noted.

I don't like the comparative argument about GMAW-P Vs CV Mig and which has more penetration.  Here are some reasons why.
     1. Are we comparing fusion Amp vs Amp...
          a.  If yes, what forumula are using to determine GMAW-P amperage... Every synergic pulser has different CC/CV power outputs defined by wave forums that carry up to sixteen variables.
     2. If you are using an Amp Volt formula how do you determine voltage for GMAW-P
     3.  How can you even practically decribe the CC and the CV power GMAW-P outputs as it flip flops several hundred times per second in most synergic pulsers.

Better to do your own trials comparing penetration profiles for a given wire feed speed.. It is less scientific but closer to where the rubber meets the road.

Lincoln Powerwave is an awsome semi auto Synergic Pulser in my opinion.  It has been criticized in Mechanized/Robotic high speed synergic applications.. But for manual welding it is a really slick machine...  Even so.. for 1/4 the price you could produce more, consistant quality welds with FCAW and a standard CV power supply and straight C02.

Or if your work was all in the flat and horizontal posion, that plain $2,500 CV power supply could run traditional spray transfer for less cost that the fancy lincoln. (FCAW or even MCAW would likely still be more productive and consistant in this senerio)

I just don't think GMAW-P is the best process choice for plain carbon steel in the thickness range you are discussing.\
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 02-27-2008 21:56
Hey Lawrence!

Hope very much you're doing quite well and all is good!
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
1. Are we comparing fusion Amp vs Amp...
a.  If yes, what forumula are using to determine GMAW-P amperage... Every synergic pulser has different CC/CV power outputs defined by wave forums that carry up to sixteen variables.

2. If you are using an Amp Volt formula how do you determine voltage for GMAW-P.

3.  How can you even practically decribe the CC and the CV power GMAW-P outputs as it flip flops several hundred times per second in most synergic pulsers.

Better to do your own trials comparing penetration profiles for a given wire feed speed.. It is less scientific but closer to where the rubber meets the road.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Superb!

Best regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-27-2008 23:16
Stephen!

Thanks for the kind words.

I think I really forgot something important and would like to know if you would agree.

Shield gas, especially for spray transfer GMAW has a very big impact on the penetration profile.... I've seen many etched illustrations depecting profiles from finger shaped to an inverted mound, all accomplished with more or less active gas added to the argon.

Now... This kind of study is nothing new.. Different gas mixes have been compared for decades eh?

But what about with GMAW-P???  Will the same or paralell profile "types" be achieved ?   Will there be differences in penetration profiles with different *propriatary* GMAW-P pulse programs?  I can tell you that Miller, Lincoln and Esab have quite different approaches to achieving synergic GMAW-P spray transfers.

I covet your thoughts
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 02-28-2008 14:28
Lawrence,

I thank  YOU  for allowing me to participate on your outstanding expertise!

Hmmm, this is a very good point, absolutely!

Just had a very short first look, but having as well the very first ideas on that.

Due to having lots of work at the moment please grant me a little time.

As soon I can breathe again, I'll post my humble thoughts!

Thanks and my best regards to you,
Stephan
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 03-01-2008 18:22
Hey Lawrence,

first off and once again thanks a lot for honoring me by considering me as being worthy to reply on:

"...But what about with GMAW-P???  Will the same or parallel profile "types" be achieved ?   Will there be differences in penetration profiles with different *proprietary* GMAW-P pulse programs?..."

I am quickly using the free time (it's Saturday evening) to write a few sentences on this. You know, this is one of my absolute favorites, since it's a part of another absolute favorite of mine, namely "Heat Input" in arc welding. But although the one requires the other, I will try to treat only the "form" of pulses in GMAW-P. When I have started working with my current employer I was directly confronted with all these "new" GMAW power supplies supplying synergic pulse welding characteristics. I am honest, it wasn't that new for me since the GMA "Pulse" welding was invented an appropriate time before I have started to working there. But I am honest as well when I say, that I have learned GMA welding Aluminum Alloys not by using the pulsed but the "conventional" arc modes (mainly the spray arc, since the wall thicknesses of the components I had to weld were larger ones). However, to cut the long story short, when I have begun and was required to use the GMAW-P I have been taught what a "pulse" actually is. And you know me, I have asked a lot, since not everything what I have been taught, sounded also reasonable to me. That was the point in time when I have begun to busy myself with this extraordinary interesting matter and since then, it has never let me off.

What is a "Pulse"?

No no, of course I don't want to be that foolhardy to try to treat this sensible question herein. I guess that this wouldn't work, even rudimentarily. I furthermore honestly mean that rather  y o u  could teach  me  what a "Pulse" is, but you have "brought up a painful subject" by asking a very sensible and very in-depth question, namely:

"Will there be differences in penetration profiles with different *proprietary* GMAW-P pulse programs?"

Thus I mean it should be reasonable to have a closer look upon the very basic structure of a "pulse" irrespectively how this is being used later on to be "proprietarily" deposited within the many different available power supplies. I personally suppose that this might succeed. I beg your forgiveness, when I use a part of a paper (see also http://www.fronius.com/cps/rde/xbcr/SID-0AFF0106-7E50E490/fronius_international/14_mig_loeten_von_verzinkten_duennblechen_gb.pdf) been prepared long ago by my greatly appreciated fellow Heinz Hackl, who is the head of my employers R&D department. Please know, that this should not mean any kind of advertising and I am sure that similar papers and representations are numerously available on the internet, but I have taken "the easiest way". Within this paper there is the schematically drawing of a "Pulsed Arc", see also the attached Variable_Pulse.jpeg. On this sketch one can recognize an area representing how the pulse form can be varied by different electrotechnical means provided by the power supply (I have allowed myself to mark one of those areas by integrating dashed lines).

Basically one can see, that there are marked two important values, namely "Ikrit" (meaning the "Critical Current") and "Im" (meaning the "Average Current"). These both values are "common" values for  e v e r y  pulsed arc in GMAW-P. Since we are - as you have already described in your excellent previous post from the 25th of February by asking:

"...How can you even practically describe the CC and the CV power GMAW-P outputs as it flip flops several hundred times per second in most synergic pulsers..."

-  varying both current and voltage (and of course many other different background pulse parameters in an intricate "synergic" way). Thus it appears hard to predict, what the penetration profile of a pulsed arc will look like. Since even this depends strongly on the arc power, or let me better say the "thermal efficiency" of an arc. Now I stop, since this is what makes the entire issue indeed spicy and enormous interesting, but as well too large in extent for our discussion. But I guess as well that it is not stringently necessary to go too much into the deep, since I hope that I nonetheless can express my own thoughts finally although avoiding to treat these tricky details.

Let's go back to the sketch under the Variable_Pulse.jpeg. The both values there to be recognized represent - I truly hope you may agree - two of common "Pulse Parameters", since it is well-known, that the droplet as well as its detachment is formed and influenced by different complex acting forces. It is also well-known, that a pulsed arc is practically only possible under inert or shielding gases containing high amounts of inert gases, e.g. Argon. These gases make sure that the "LORENTZ' Force" can create the well-known "Pinch-Effect", as to be represented in the attached Arc_Forces.jpeg. Of course strongly simplified. Thus I would like to "separate" these both values for the first to be treated a bit closer.

The major benefit of a pulsed arc is the short circuit free droplet detachment. This again is only being obtainable by having high current densities in the arc plasma causing the forces acting to pinch off and transfer the droplet into the weld pool. High current densities in the arc are created by - of course - high welding currents. And the level where the "globular" droplet growth imposed with more or less short circuiting to the weld pool is being exceeded and transfers toward a "spray" arc is the "critical" current. This critical current (Ikrit in the sketch) is common to all pulsed arcs, since even this current level must be exceeded to achieve a high current density to enhance the droplet detaching forces and a short circuit free droplet transition to the weld pool. The critical current again depends to a significant row of other peripheral parameters, coming mainly from the filler material and shielding gas side. In particular the filler to be used is strongly affecting the height of the critical current, due to material's parameters which are strongly temperature depending (e.g. surface tension), what's the reason again for using specific shielding gas mixtures for specific filler material alloys (e.g. Ar/He for improving the droplet detachment of Nickel-alloy fillers).

Anyway, so to conclude by here.

All "proprietary" pulses (power supply manufacturer depending) must exceed the critical current to obtain even a pulsed arc mode.

And now it comes to that what you, Lawrence, have so brilliantly described. In my very own personal opinion, this value is the only very common value in GMAW-P. Since this value is - depending to base material, filler material and shielding gas - as well common for obtaining  even the "spray" arc mode. And even this arc mode is obtainable by nearly every kind of power supply, whether "conventional" or "micro processor controlled". So if you would ask me if the penetration profile of a spray arc (similar parameters and peripheral conditions presumed) would be similar or at least as far as possible comparable independently what power supply used, I would answer "Yes!".

Coming to the second value (Average Current Value). As to be recognized on the "Variable_Pulse" sketch, the mean value is being held constant, independently of what kind of form of curve shape is chosen (by using the appropriate means of the specific power source), since however the curve shape may be fixed, the mean arc power should remain constant. However, the way of achieving the different pulse curve shape is already "proprietary" and thus dependent to the power source used.  

Why?

The pulsed arc - as a variation between a "high" pulse peak current (above the critical current level) and a "low" background current can be created by different power sources "modulation modes" (constant voltage / constant voltage -- constant voltage / constant current -- constant current / constant current or constant current / constant voltage). Alone this fact, which should not be treated further on herein (I beg your understanding), makes sure that the  s y n e r g i c  pulsed arc characteristic stored within the memory of a specific power supply is proprietary to even this power source and should yield a specific penetration profile.

Alone this technological fact is - at least in my humble opinion - an evidence for your statement, that the "proprietary" pulse forms and their penetration profiles should be treated as even being "power source specific", if you would allow to use this artificial term.

How is a pulsed arc in GMAW-P being theoretically calculated?

Well, I hope that I am permitted to simplify the answer by using only the crucial variables:

-  Dw = Wire diameter
-  Dd  = Droplet diameter
-  F    = Pulse frequency
-  L    = Melted length of wire per pulse cycle
-  n    = Number of detached droplets
-  Vw  = Wire feed speed

By using these variables it is possible to calculate the theoretical short circuit free "1 drop per 1 pulse" detachment for a specific wire electrode diameter by:

n   = pi x Dd^3 / 6 =  pi x Dw^2 / 4 x L

and furthermore:

Vw  = L x F   or  F  = Vw/L      

However, even if we consider the basics of pulsed arc theories dealing with the calculation of the pulsed arc average efficiency, its frequency,..., by presuming a square wave form (I do not state the calculation for this herein), even then, at least in my opinion, the pulsed arc's behavior upon the workpiece should be different depending to the power supply used. This - so my personal opinion and experience - can be traced back to the different construction of the power sources and the different components (e.g. transformer etc.) and sub components (boards) being used to manufacture the specific power supply.

Thus, Lawrence, and hereby coming to the end, I can only 100% agree with your statement: "I can tell you that Miller, Lincoln and Esab have quite different approaches to achieving synergic GMAW-P spray transfers." And thus - once again - I can only 100% agree with your excellent statement and recommendation:

"Better to do your own trials comparing penetration profiles for a given wire feed speed.. It is less scientific but closer to where the rubber meets the road."

I truly believe that no better recommendation can be given on APM's inquiry!

So far my humble thoughts on this.

My very best regards to you,
Stephan
Attachment: Variable_Pulse.jpg (26k)
Attachment: Arc_Forces.jpg (11k)
Parent - - By Sean (**) Date 03-01-2008 23:45 Edited 03-01-2008 23:51
Nicely explained as usual Stephan!

This thread brings up another question.  How do folks typically address the different pulsing programs on your WPS'?  Standard WPS formats in codes such as D1.1 don't really seem to address the variations in pulsing programs and "standard" parameters like amperage & voltage don't really apply and as both Lawrence & Stephan have mentioned amperage and voltage for pulsing programs are not the same as a typical CV machine.
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 03-02-2008 10:05
Hey Sean!

First off, thank's a lot for your kind words!

Hmmm, I'm certain that Lawrence will have a very good reply on your very good question, thus I do not want to anticipate him.

To be honest, I have - unfortunately - no detailed knowledge of the D 1.1 code, but what I mean to have understood meanwhile by pursuing the posts in the forums, this code must be a very important one, isn't it? Due to this lack of knowledge it would be crazy if I would try to participate on a discussion between you experts and dealing with the details of the D 1.1.

I guess you may agree.

But nonetheless, above the details of the D 1.1 code there is a kind of more physical or more "universal" constituent in your interesting question and this is:

"How to treat the performance of a Pulsed Arc in comparison with a conventional Arc (e.g. the Spray Arc)?"

And hereunto I would like to allow myself to write two sentences. The descriptions in terms of how the "pulse" is generated by the micro processor controlling circuit of the specific power source (basing on very specific and "proprietary" algorithms) is one aspect though a very important one. This means - at least in my humble opinion - that the pulsed arc basing on a specific pulse shape and provided by a specific power supply again, provides a specific arc and behavior, respectively.

But...

Even this specific welding behavior or let me better say, even the "Pulsed Arc" behavior has a wide range of influence on the particular welding application. What does this mean? Well, what's the major reason the Pulsed Arc has been created for in general? Strongly simplified one could answer: "It has been generated for avoiding to stringently pass through the physical range of the "Globular" Arc - being strongly affected by instable droplet detachments, severe short circuiting and spatter generation." As I said, even strongly simplified.

Since normally - and this is as far as I understood the statements of Lawrence correctly - we won't need the pulsed arc at lower power ranges (we do have yet the very clean adjustable "Short Arc" for welding lower wall thicknesses), and actually we won't need the pulsed arc for higher weld performances (since here we do have the "Spray Arc", being relatively clear calculable by using "Voltage" and "Current" and multiplying them to achieve the electrical arc efficiency).

But meanwhile the pulsed arc can be seen often as being represented as the "panacea" in GMAW, recommended for being used from the lowest to the highest welding performance range. And this - at least in my humble opinion and understanding - is not true! To be honest. I would prefer a cleanly adjusted "Short Arc" instead of an artificial generated "Pulsed Arc" for welding very thin sheet metals. And to be honest again. I would prefer a pure CV Spray Arc (creating slight recognizable short circuiting by having chosen high wire feed speeds and thus adjusting a "short" arc length) for welding larger wall thicknesses instead of using a high performance "Pulsed Arc" due to its several risks of creating welding discontinuities (undercut etc.). But however, this is my personal opinion.

Coming thus back to your interesting question. I mean the "quality" of a "proprietary" pulsed arc can be best recognized by welding "difficult" base materials (e.g. very thin aluminum sheet metals etc.). In those cases it depends extremely on even the proprietary generation of the pulse shape and the "background parameters" cohering to this shape. And I mean, that even this should be considered as being difficult to measure in regard to the welding performance. Since the pulse shape depends yields the frequency and when welding thin sheets, the weld deposition rate is "low" what means that the wire feed speed is low and thus again the frequency is low. That finally leads to the result that the "Average Performance" is low and depends to the peculiar and proprietary adjustments in the microprocessor controlled circuit.

But...

Let us better stay at higher welding performances, wire feed speeds and deposition rates. And thus let us stay at the range where the conventional CV "Spray Arc" might be used instead a "Pulsed Arc". What defines a higher weld performance "Pulsed Arc"? Amongst others, it is defined mainly by "higher" frequencies, since the physical relation between wire feed speed and arc performance can't even be eliminated by the (artificial) generated "Pulsed Arc". As I have tried to describe by using the formulae in my previous post, the frequency of the pulsed arc is inseparable coupled with the wire feed speed or the amount of filler to be molten down over a specific unit of time. But what does this mean in fact? Under considering to use a pulsed arc at higher wire feed rates, this means that the frequency must increase. And by knowing that the pulsed arc performance must even exceed the "critical" current (normally indicating the "Spray Arc" range), one could simplified state that the higher the pulsed arc performance (high frequency = little background current periods) is chosen, the more one approaches the Pulsed Arc" performance to the "Spray Arc" performance.

This again means. By increasing the Average Performance (Pv) of the pulsed arc by increasing its frequency (stringently depending to the chosen wire feed speed) the better this average can be estimated, even by approaching more and more the product of "Voltage x Current". And even this is being done by the meters integrated within the power source. These meters provide an "average" value for the pulsed arc performance, what can be mostly be recognized by the "mean voltage" and "mean current" readable at the power source' panel.

But however, although one can read the "values" been generated by welding with a pulsed arc, it is another crucial question of:

1.  How accurate these meters are? - and
2.  How the measurement has integrated al the tricky variables to be considered within a welding circuit (ground cable lengths, inductances,...)?

I personally mean, and thus to come to an end, exactly this is what makes the comparability of different power supplies (welding with "proprietary" pulsed arcs) so difficult. And even this is one of the reasons I am so extremely interested in "Heat Input" in particular in GMAW. And once again to fully agree with Lar's recommendation to:

"Better to do your own trials comparing penetration profiles for a given wire feed speed.".

By the way, and this is truly the final sentence. As we in Germany prepare WPS' we set a "parameter window", e.g. 130... 145 Ampere as for the current. I even don't know how this is treated by the D 1.1 code or is generally handled in Canada and the United States respectively, but I would venture to say that even this "window" would cover the variations to be recognized by using different power supplies - at least in a wide range of all cases and applications.

So far my humble thoughts on this.

Best regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By Weldconsultant (*) Date 02-24-2008 22:30
In GMAW, pulse welding produces less fusion compared to CV.  However, weld spatter is considerably reduced with pulsed welding as compared to CV.  So the choice will depend on the application.  Not sure about HAZ hardness or cycle testing.

Girish
http://www.welding-consultant.com
Parent - - By APM (*) Date 02-25-2008 14:23
Do you have any data you can send that backs up the less fusion with Pulse? I've seen data that indicates penetration is the same.
Parent - By Weldconsultant (*) Date 02-25-2008 20:49
The welds were made for a customer and I am not at a liberty to send you any cross-sections or actual data though I can discuss the issue in general terms.  As for fusion and penetration, you can find settings on both pulsed and CV that will meet your needs.  However, the main difference (if that turns out to be important to meet the specs) will be in the shape of the fusion zone that will be evident on sectioning.  With the pulsed mode I found the weld width to be of similar size but the shape of the weldment narrowed down quickly, and looks more like the upper half of an hour glass.  With the CV mode, the fusion zone in cross-section looked more like a bowl.  The geometry being welded was flared groove joint; think of two tubed butted lengthwise.  It seems that for the same penetration depth, the CV setting melts lot more base metal but also produces a lot of spatter.

Girish

http://www.welding-consultant.com
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 02-25-2008 08:01
APM: Go to Ed Craig's website WeldReality.com and READ THE ENTIRE SITE. He has strong opinions, but the general concensus is that His opinions are worth considering.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 02-25-2008 15:30
Ed Craig's site is excellent and can answer many questions.
As for depth of fusion between the two: depth of fusion is related to the heat energy being imposed upon the material. By the very fact that with pulsing the heat enrgy is shut off for a portion of the cycle determines that its overall depth of fusion will be less. However, its consistency of depth of fusion will generally be greater than non pulse since its input energy is stabilized quicker.
In fact, the very purpose for the invention of pulsing in the first place was to limit heat input.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 03-02-2008 10:10 Edited 03-02-2008 10:32
Lawrence and Stephan    I just want to say I hope both you guys are pulling down some consulting money...cause if your not you should be!!!!!!   outstanding thread!!!!!

I just want to comment that my experience with true spray arc gmaw-p ...shows outstanding fusion and penetration at very very high deposition rates. Yep its narrows quickly compared to a CV weld...but it laws down at amazing rates and tie in is effortless.   However there are limits to position and actual fillet dimensions when compared to flux core wire.  The tie in of toes seems to be much more error free or effortless in spray arc ....requiring less skill to get it done inmho.   In my experience it seems that spray arc  is great for unprepared joints in PRODUCTION welding that need high penetration and no brainier fusion....if you have spec weld sizes in multiple positions going the shielded wire route seems the way to go.  Lots of shops turn out miles of quality weld daily using fluxcore wire in all kinds or out of position welds.  I think thats why they use it...cost effective...fast...and handles whatever comes down the pike efficiently.  Spray arc is specialized and its proper use is definitely related to time and ease of use constraints, also it will cost you more to do it no doubt.

My weak $.02
Tommy
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 03-02-2008 14:39
Tommy,

Please say more about your experience with GMAW-P and very very high depostion rates.. 

Most of the trials we do are on stuff 3/16 and thinner.  I'm always impressed with the fillet profiles in the overhead position but never totally satisfied with vertical with upward or downward progression on stainless or carbon steels. We have had good profiles vert up with Aluminum.

But I'm interested in the high speed stuff your talking about..... What material, what positions, what thickness, what joint geomiteries?
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 03-03-2008 06:09
Lawrence

I've only used this in a production hydraulic shop on fittings and flanges and such.  In comparison to straight wire and argon/co2 ...it was much faster and penetrated more.  No bevels no set gaps ...slap it on there and burn it...very hot.  With just regular mig they were cutting bevels into some of the fittings and pipes for more weld depth.  With the spray that went away for the most part.  I am not correct in saying that the deposition rate was very very high/ better....travel speed was much higher yes (as well as heat and wire speeds)...but the fillets usually had somewhat concave profiles.  They run both for a time and the spray method won out because that line was getting more out per shift.   I never welded any steel with it out of position  always 1f stuff and flanges were done on motorized rollers.   Most of it was 1/4 to 1/2 inch thick pipe/tube    question: Now I know sometimes you can get a regular mig and coax it into spray like behavior enough to weld with it that way....but a machine  that is specifically spray capable always uses pulse to do it  right?   I may be way out of line calling what we were using a pulse machine....I might be confusing GMAW-P with spray arc but I thought they were one in the same.

I used a very nice setup with a pulse welder on Aluminum one time for a few weeks in a job shop,  .100 to 3/8 material,  and I was blown away at the speed with which you could run beads and the amount of heat as well.   I don't remember the make of machine (linde/thermal arc/cobra? definitely not a red or blue) but it was strictly a wire feed setup only  all in one case type machine.  I was amazed that it seemed to run equally well up/down/horizontal  fillets and butts.  Just aim for the crack pull the trigger and move....it seemed almost ridiculously easy to lay fine looking welds.  I want to say they were using a tri mix but I don't remember. But there was no black smut, no spatter ...looked like a tig weld on steel almost without the color.  I did not know you could spray aluminum till then. 

Good way to start my week...I shoot my mouth off and incur the harsh gaze from the lords of welding....lol
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-03-2008 06:46
Tommy, I am pretty sure any industrial size MIG power suply will weld in spray transfer, while many of the home shop/auto body shop size units are short circut only. You might have been using conventional spray transfer with a pulse capable machine, from what I have read on Ed Craig's site with regard to the earlier pulse machines, that is about the only way they worked properly. Any power suply with enough power should work fine in spray transfer, but for out of position [except for aluminum] You need a good pulse unit.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 03-02-2008 17:02
Tommy!

Thank you so much for your kind words!

I agree 100% with your statement in regard to Lawrence :-)!

Pretty good and reasonable points by you, as usual!

Best regards,
Stephan

*Fine discussion
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 03-02-2008 23:01
welcome back stephan, good thread here.
my question would be does pulse effect the "centerline" that can be problematic in cv spray gmaw. we are not allowed to used spray gmaw on anything high pressure or something that will experience cyclical stresses because of the tendancy for the weld to crack along the "zipper" or the "centerline" that develops in the cv spray mode gmaw.
so i geuss its a two part query,
1 what are your experiences with weld failure from the "centerline" developed in traditional cv spray gmaw
2 does pulse have any effect on the "centerline" fusion

it seems that unless there is a lot of one type of weld that must be produced and you can develop the parameters for higher production, good old non inverter cv within the hands of a skilled operator meets the most challenges with success. in my opinion inverters think to much and end up with "nuerosis" , arc instability over time.
another question is does not the pure co2 have an effect on the hardness unless run at a lower voltage that can be run with blended gases. therefore maybe offsetting cost benefits by slowing down deposit rates?
darren
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 03-03-2008 09:37 Edited 03-03-2008 11:14
Thanks darren!

Just having a very short look into the forums and having thus read your good points.

Hmmm, lots of ideas on that, but before I'll find the time - hopefully as soon as possible - to reply, please forgive me when I ask: "What does "c e n t e r l i n e"  (developed in traditional cv spray gmaw) mean?"

Thanks a lot in advance for enlighten me*!

Best regards,
Stephan

* Edit: Perhaps you might draw a little sketch?
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 03-03-2008 21:02
http://www.weldreality.com/marada-035-700-.jpg
the one on the left you can see a little,
the centerline of fusion is the line in the center of the face of a fillet weld when pure spay mode is used in gmaw. it is where like a zipper the weld closes up as you travel.
i have no evidence of it but have been told repeatedly from different sources that gmaw spray fillets are subject to failure along this line.
darren
Attachment: Doc1.doc (30k)
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 03-04-2008 06:34
Hey darren!

Ahhh, I see!

O.k. cheers for the explanation, the link* and... the pretty drawing!

I hope to having understood what you mean.

Please grant me a bit time, you know before I can enjoy the forum comprehensively the daily job has to be done.

But I guess anyhow there will be some good answers on your excellent question in the meantime coming from the other appreciated fellows.

Thanks and best regards,
Stephan

* Nice beads and very informative!
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 03-04-2008 12:09
thanks for the rescue Dave...I stepped out of my boundaries yet again....still this is a very very interesting thread!
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 03-17-2008 18:28
darren,

I must truly admit, in particular you and Ray (Kix) are two of the colleagues who are having the right "feeling" for asking tremendous interesting questions on the one hand (it is always an enjoyment to ponder on these) but as well you're having the expertise of answering tricky questions on the other hand!

Really great!

Since I have read:

"... the centerline of fusion is the line in the center of the face of a fillet weld when pure spay mode is used in gmaw..."

and

"...gmaw spray fillets are subject to failure along this line..."

as well as I saw your drawing and the Ed Craig pictures a thousand of different ideas shot through my head. I truly hope that I will be able to write down what my humble thoughts on this are and hopefully I will find a way to not treating the item "too theoretically".

I will try...

Before I'll typewrite down what kind of "mental chaos" your question has initiated in me I would like to state that I would not agree with the different sources who have told you (I hope that I have interpreted this correctly) that the "zipper" is the cause for an increased joint's failure risk.

But...

It is of course as usual. "Normally" the "zipper" should not increase the risk of failure but this implies - likewise as usual - that the exception might not prove the rule.

What does this mean..?

I am honest. As having welded a couple of meters of GMAW seams in my life I have certainly recognized the "zipper" or let me further better say the "centerline" on steel fillet welds been carried out under using high arc or wire feed performances, respectively. And I am sure that many others have likewise seen these centerlines. To be honest as well, I have indeed considered generally what the reason(s) for this phenomenon might be before you have asked your wonderful question, but I must admit that I have never considered this topic that deeply as I did it since I have read your post. Therefore my hearty thanks, Darren! 

O.k. firstly I have founded my thoughts on this on my past considerations, this is that the "cutting" effect of a GMA spray arc generates the centerline.

But you, Darren, did something very "strange" and extraordinary good. By following the initial post of APM you posted a particular Ed Craig link showing two fillet welds. One pulsed- and one spray arc welded one. And hereby you switched something in my tiny brain and I started to overrule all ideas on the creation of the phenomenon "centerline" I had before in order to restart my considerations quasi from ground zero. As I had mentioned in a previous response, the Ed Craig picture was very informative.

The first idea I had when I saw the picture was "Hey, that's quite interesting! Both fillets were welded by using a 0.9 mm wire diameter and 700 inch/min. (~ 17.8 m/min.) wire feed speed." I must admit, I had not the time to have a closer look upon Ed Craig's website furthermore (to much work currently) and thus I don't know if he explains what has (technically) been done there and why the welds have a different appearance, but nonetheless I have seen that - although the wire feed speed was equal - different electrical parameters were observed. What I do not know as well is the answer on the question: "Why is the pulsed arc welded fillet (although apparently the throat of both welds was approximately similar) shorter than the spray arc welded?" Were the welding times different? O.k. then the distinct lengths were of course understandable. But what, when the welding - or "arc burn" - times were equal? Then I must admit I would have a problem in understanding. Why, then I would ask, are the lengths of both seams different although the wire feed speeds were similar?

You know what I mean? 

Let us - for a better understanding - take two values:

1.  Wire feed speed = similar and constant
2.  Welding time = similar and constant

And now let's use this by taking an arbitrary value for the welding time.

Let's say:

·  Wire feed speed = 700.00 inch/min (= 17.780 mm/min)
·  Welding time = 60 [s] = 1.0 minute
·  Wire electrode diameter (d) = .035" (~ 0.9 mm)

This means, that the wire electrode is going to be molten down for 1 minute and we want to know the volume of the weld deposit for even this 1.0 minute.

Thus we can say (by using the equation for the volume of a cylinder):

V = Pi*r^2*h

Here is:

V = volume of weld deposit of 1.0 minute
Pi = 3.14
r = d/2 
h = length of wire electrode molten down in 1.0 minute

and thus:

V = Pi * 0.45[mm]^2 * 17,780[mm]

= 3.14 * 0.2025[mm^2] * 17,780[mm]

= ~ 11,305 [mm^3]

= ~ 11.305 [cm^3]

What we have is thus a constant weld deposit volume of approx. 11,3 cm^3/min which has to be distributed over 1 minute to the fillet joint welded.

Would you agree with me when I say: " If both arc modes (spray and pulse) were processed with similar (mechanical = wire feed speed) values, as to be seen above, and both welds have thus a similar weld deposition rate (spatter losses should be neglected herein) would it then be reasonable to expect the similar (theoretical) throat and - presuming a similar welding speed - a similar weld length?"

I would say: "Yes!"

But now one might say: "Haha, have a look upon the different electrical parameters! These were not similar! And thus there must be a difference between the pulsed arc and the spray arc welded seam, and the centerline is even the proof for this difference!"

And since I know that I myself would have been a candidate for even such a question, it was the reason for me to choose the "indirect route" over the deposition rate to having a chance to (again) talking about the "electrical values" of either the spray- and the pulsed arc.

I hope you may forgive me this way and to not treating directly the question in terms of the "zipper", but (you know me) I hope as well that I'll be able to show you finally that the above mentioned has strongly to do with even your question.

Taking the Ed Craig picture and taking thus the electrical values of both arc modes been used for welding the seams. Here we have:

·  Spray Arc: 260 [A], 30 [V]
·  Pulsed Arc: 210 [A], 29 [V]

"Hmmm, very interesting!" that was my very first thought when I saw the picture. Why...

Well, since I thought by myself:

"When we do have two fillet joints having a quite similar outer appearance (as far as possible interpretable from the picture due to not knowing any particular details), i.e. theoretical throat, wire feed speed,..., how, so I asked myself, could these similar appearances been generated by that significant different electrical values?" And further I asked myself of course: "Which value of welding performance do these different parameters yield when calculating even this performance?" So I have used the standard calculations for electrical power to deduce on the thermal energy input into the base material (you know, my major goal was and is - animated by you - to find out where the centerline does come from, what kind of physical phenomenon it actually is and if this phenomenon can increase the risk of a weld joint failure). This since I supposed that the centerline phenomenon must have something to do with the thermal energy input the base material is subjected to and since it is rather easy to calculate the thermal energy from the electrical energy. So what did I do?

We know, by allowing to simplify (neglecting the process efficiency coefficient "eta"), the electrical power can be calculated by using:

P = U*I

Here is:

P = (Welding)Power in Watt [W]
U = (Welding)Voltage in Volts [V]
I = (Welding)Current in Ampere [A]

We know as well that the ("true") spray arc mode (constant voltage assumed) shows a great constancy in both current and voltage, even since the droplet detachment and transfer occurs without any significant interruptions (e.g. short circuits) creating inconsistencies in the transient regime. By simplifying we can thus say: "Yes, the spray arc mode is characterized by "constant" transient regimes in voltage and current and thus the well-known equation can be used to calculate the electrical power of the arc in a sufficient extent.

Using the values from above:

P spray = 30 [V] * 260 [A] = 7800* [W]

(*) fluctuations and ripples to be neglected

Hmmm, now we have the power, yes, but what does "Power" actually mean? Does it mean that we do have a "7800 Watt" Arc? Actually yes. Though this value doesn't express very much accurate on the actual arc energy which is imposed upon the base material. However, this should not be treated further herein, since I guess it is more important to have a view upon the differences being recognizable when having a look upon the Ed Craig pictures showing that significant distinct electrical parameters. And thus to repeat my above question: "How can that different parameters create that similar seams - or at least similar outer appearances?"

I hope you don't mind if I make a short sidestep at this point, to trying to clarify what I pursue. It was important for me, when I have started to thinking about your question and the attached picture, to understand personally if the "centerline" does occur only in "spray arc welded" or as well in "pulsed arc welded" fillet joints.

Thus I would like to use the same equation as been used for calculating the spray arc performance for calculating the pulsed arc performance. I hope it will show that there is a main problem often to observe in using electrical values in correlation with a pulsed arc. So:

P pulse = 29 [V] * 210 [A] = 6090 [W]

??? 6090 Watt ???

Hmmm, strange, at least for me!

When I have calculated correctly (please correct me when I've done wrong!) this is 1710 W less than the spray arc performance (7800 W). And despite this fact, both arc modes could perform the - apparently - similar weld deposition rate and a - apparently - similar outer seam shape?

You know what I mean?

Well, then allow me to resume...

Apparently there must be a kind of approach of the "real" performance between the "spray" and the "pulsed" arc. By using the term "real" I try to express that the "real" welding results - as to be observable on the pictures - appear to be quite similar, although the measured values the arc performance is based upon appear to be significantly different. Thus it seems that even this approach appears to be not "captured" or "observed" by the power supply meters providing the values we can see upon the Ed Craig pictures.

O.k. o.k., now you will answer most likely: "Son of a gun! Stephan what are you bothering us with these uninteresting facts? It is well-known that the pulsed arc has a non uniform transient regime in both voltage and current and it has been already mentioned and discussed in some previous posts above!"

And yes, I would absolutely agree with you!

But...

What actually is the "true" difference then between the spray- and the pulsed arc if we can admittedly observe a difference between the measured electrical values (actually the basis for the arc performance) but not a real significant difference in the welding results?

And now I'd like to come slowly to the point.

Presuming we are using same wire feed rates in both arc modes, we can presume that even these wire feed rates (standing again for weld deposition volumes) must be "overcome" by the arc power. What does this mean? Well, in my eyes the (in this case) 700 inch of wire electrode must be molten down in a way of highest welding stability and repeatability within a 1 minute period. If the (mechanical constant) wire feed rate would not match the voltage being provided by the power source, we would observe either an inappropriate (too long) arc length (voltage too high) or an inappropriate (too short) arc length (voltage too low). Both cases are undesired since yielding either "burn back" to the contact tip (voltage too high) or - at least - spatter by short circuiting (voltage too low). In other words, if this would occur one could expect to have severe problems with our welding process.

But what are the electrical pulsed arc values we can read upon the power supply's display worth then if they appear to not reflect the true welding conditions within the arc itself? Hmmm, and furthermore could this be the reason for so many questions how to use the electrical pulsed arc values to be readable on the display for generating e.g. a WPS?

I guess... both questions are reasonable.

Thus...

When we are looking upon the transient regime of voltage and current of a pulsed arc, we can see that the equation as been used above cannot capture no more the true conditions of the arc - of course. And so we should use a more accurate way of capturing even these conditions. But I must repeat myself once again (see my previous posts on this), I would rather like - to following Lawrence' proverb: "Not physics, the rubber meets the road!" - to avoid the detailed theoretical treatment of these pulsed arc calculations herein, due to this topic is truly "spicy". However I remain by my opinion, it should finally be unnecessary to express what I think.

But nonetheless...

Let's imagine again what we have discussed formerly and thus let's recall that the pulsed arc (current) transient regime must exceed a value which is specific to a wire electrode's chemistry, diameter, shielding gas composition,..., this is the critical current value (Icrit.). As we have discussed this value is likewise to be seen as to be the specific current height at which the "globular" droplets are being significantly reduced in both size and volume and being transferred "spraying like" and short circuit free along the arc column towards the weld pool. Now one has to consider that the "true spray arc" does take place only within a tight parameter window showing a spraying low volume droplet transition across the arc column. More to this a bit later on. When we do consider now a pulsed arc this critical and specific value is exceeded and admittedly in a way that the safe transition from globular to spray is assured to be achieved. This means the critical spray arc value in the transient regime of a pulsed arc is exceeded with an "additional charge" of safety. And thus the "pulse peak" value can lie significantly higher than the actual critical "spray arc" current value. Since the pulsed arc is always a function of the frequency and this again is always a function of time, we can assume that the time period the critical current is existing is fixed in the background parameters (proprietary) but we can assume as well that the critical value is not only exceeded instantaneously but for an appropriate time range.

So what do we have by that?

Actually we have an increase in the arc performance compared with a "conventional" spray arc, whose true character exists only within a very tight window. Thus the measured performance value should be higher. But now we have the well-known transient regime of a pulsed arc. This is, the current is being decreased (by proprietary power supply controlling algorithms) along a specific period of time (fixing the frequency finally) to reach the background current level, which is much lower than the critical spray arc current value. This means the measured arc performance should be significantly lower compared with a fine adjusted spray arc. And it is.

And now by using both values we can see, that finally there must come out a mean value of both voltage and current over the course of an appropriate pulsed arc regime. And even this mean value is measured by the power supply meters and lies often significantly under the values of a "continuously" burning spray arc.

I know, there might be some of you who would now say to me: "Stephan, but these mean values are not the "true" values, since the - periodical - measurement of instantaneous values for creating finally the "arithmetic" mean does not lead to similar welding results as to be seen on the Ed Craig pictures! And furthermore it must be the area underneath a single pulse which should show the true calculated performance of a pulsed arc!"

And yes, once again I would agree with you! But even this hits the ways of calculations I would like to avoid to treat herein, thus I beg your forgiveness.

But how can the results on the Ed Craig pictures can be explained then?

Not, as apparently shown, by the - measured - lower weld performance of the pulsed arc used for melting down the 700 inches of wire electrode per minute. How then..?

Hmmm, I truly hope you have followed me up to here and I hope much more that this what I have considered by twisting my tiny brain might make any sense finally!

O.k. coming back to the topic...

Energy, as we know it, is Energy. It can't be destroyed or generated but it is there and can only change its form of appearance. And thus - in my humble opinion - with respect to our arcs, if both arcs can perform the same (melting 700 inches of the wire electrode / minute) and yield furthermore quite comparable outer welding results, the amount of "true" energy been used to maintain both arc modes should be similar finally as well.

Or not..?

I must admit it appears a bit confusing, isn't it?

But I have considered as follows.

Let us have a look upon the equation:

P = U * I

We can see the voltage (U) and the current (I) yielding as its product the power (P). But what is voltage finally?

According to Ohm's law, voltage is current (I) times resistance (R) what's the reason for that we could also write for the equation above:

P = I^2 * R

And this - at least in my humble consideration - is the whole secret. The current fulfills a quadratic function within the arc process. And hereby again the resistance heating of the wire tip to workpiece distance - or wire electrode's stick out - is tremendously risen while the drastically increase of the current significantly above the critical "spray arc" value, this should allow finally to achieve similar weld deposition rates compared with the conventional spray arc.

To find out what kind of "true" energy has been used for melting down a specific volume of filler wire by using a pulsed arc mode, one should use another way of calculation, e.g. the Root Mean Square (RMS) which captures much more accurate what's making a pulsed arc really a pulsed arc.

And quite now I have reached the point in time when I want to say.

If, if ever, the (true efficient) value of energy of a pulsed arc and a spray arc would be comparable in its total amount (from their outer welding results they were comparable as it appears - see the Ed Craig pictures) then I would like to ask:

"Could eventually both arcs (spray and pulse) generate a centerline in welding a fillet weld?"

This was thus the next question for me to consider after I have reached the level of "confusion" in my head.

And so I did thinking as follows...

I have tried for myself to mentally recall how often I have seen even the phenomenon centerline in GMAW. That was not that hard, since as I said, I have experienced it sometimes when welding with a high performance spray arc in fillet joints. But honestly it was hard for me to recall to having seen the centerline - at least consciously - in using a high performance pulsed arc. So I tried - once again - to find a welding sample in my employers company which could prove the existence of a centerline likewise in pulsed arc welded fillets. But no chance. I found nothing. What I found whereas was a welding sample showing a fillet joint welded by having used the T.I.M.E.© process and thus a high performance spray arc under a patented shielding gas (65%Ar/26.5%He/8%CO2/0.5%O2) atmosphere.

The base material's (~ grade SA 36) thickness was 10 mm (~ 0.4 inch) and it has been manually welded in pos. 2F. The wire electrode was comparable the ER 70 S6 having had a diameter of 1.2 mm (~ 0.045 inch). The welding speed achieved was 75 cm/min (~ 2.5 ft/min) by using the following welding parameters:

·  Current = 400 [A]
·  Voltage = 42 [V]
·  Wire feed speed = 21 m/min (~ 69 ft/min)

Please have a look upon the attached Spray_Arc.jpeg. Isn't it wonderful? I mean, yes it is, since it shows exactly what you have mentioned, even the centerline or "zipper". After that I had another look upon the Ed Craig picture, to trying to recognize this centerline(s) there as well. As you have mentioned in your post, on the left one (spray arc) there seems to be somewhat similar recognizable, on the right one whereas (pulsed arc) rather not. That was a point in time where got - at least for a little moment - confused completely. Although not knowing the shielding gas composition Ed Craig has used for welding both seams (I assume it should have been a less active gas containing one due to the very little slag isle in the end crater(s)) it appeared that only the spray arc joint had a rudimentarily recognizable centerline.

Hmmm, strange. We appear to have a similar welding performance with both arc modes but we appear nonetheless to having no similar result with respect to the "centerline". That was the point in time when I have remembered - at least I tried - some high speed videos I have seen in the past of both spray- and pulsed arc. And I was nearly certain that there was actually a difference in the arc behavior.

Whereas the "real" spray arc under Argon rich shielding gases (existing even within the little window as mentioned above) has a very peculiar appearance (high current density and temperature core) the pulsed arc shows (mostly) an appearance different to this - as well when being maintained under the same shielding gas.

What does this mean? Well, when we are having a look upon the attached Spray_Arc_1.jpeg, we can see what I have tried to describe. The depicted spray arc shows a well-known bell shaped appearance. When having a closer look upon the picture one can vague recognize the small sized droplets being transferred along this mentioned hottest "path" or "core" of the arc plasma. The outer areas whereas are compared with the hot core, relatively "cold". This means strongly simplified that the droplet transition across the arc gap is accomplished along the high density core of the plasma. I have tried to find a video or somewhat comparable, please see also the attached link: http://www.mss-schweisstechnik.de/video/sprueh.avi .
This means again that the temperature of this limited area upon the base material achieves highest degrees to enable some very, very interesting physical interactions in the weld pool. However, the most well-known phenomenon is the remarkable "finger type penetration" of a spray arc under Argon rich shielding gas compositions.

Hmmm, even this - the high performance density in the center and thus the deep center penetration - could already be the reason for the centerline on a spray arc welded but not the pulsed arc welded fillet joint... or rather not yet..?

Before I'll try to answer this question, let's firstly have a short look upon a pulsed arc. What kind of arc shape is (very often) observable when using this arc mode? Yes, a wide spread one resulting from the very steep increase in both voltage and current along the transient regime of the particular pulse form. For a better understanding please see also the attached: http://www.mss-schweisstechnik.de/video/puls.avi .
As can be seen in this little image the arc area is widened compared with the spray arc. The actual metal droplet transfer whereas - as to be seen quite clearly - is accomplished not at the pulse peak but at a specific point (proprietary) of the pulse flank's dropping period. As a pulsed arc is working when imposed upon a fillet joint, can be seen under having a view upon: http://www.mss-schweisstechnik.de/video/puls_keh.avi .

It shows quite good how the pulsed arc is being spread over a wider area while the pulse regime is formed (by the power supply's algorithms) compared with the "conventional" stringent oriented "hot core" spray arc.

So far so good...

So it seems accomplished and we have found the reason for the centerline upon the spray arc fillet joint but not upon the pulsed arc fillet joint - finally!!

The high dense energy core of the spray arc plasma causes the centerline. Due to the pulsed arc has admittedly a comparable arc performance but distributes the energy content in a different way to the spray arc, it even shows no centerline upon the seam surface.

Really..???

Wait a moment and see what I have found!

I have received a welding sample at the last world's greatest Welding fair "Schweißen & Schneiden" held in Essen in 2005. The sample has been performed by using a Panasonic welding robot + integrated power supply. They call it, as far as remember correctly, the TOWER principle. The interesting on this weld sample whereas is not the fine and small fillet joint seam itself, been performed by using a lowest performance  s h o r t - a r c  on a 1.0 mm thick base material but rather what kind of phenomenon the seam itself shows.

Yes! You won't believe it, but it shows a "centerline", please see also the attached Short_Arc_Centerline.jpeg. I beg your forgiveness by not knowing any kind of technical details, but I guess these are rather secondary. The actually astonishing is (at least for me):

"The centerline phenomenon appears to being not only a stringent spray arc fillet weld phenomenon."

This so far.

By avoiding to list hereinafter all my surely strange personal considerations on this strange experience (I don't want to kill you :-)) I'd like to come finally to an end to finally state my thoughts on your original question. So here's my try of an explanation.

I guess that the centerline phenomenon is rather not a question of the arc mode itself but rather a very particular one having to do strongly with a very particular balance of different parameters.

What does this mean?

Well, when we can achieve a physical condition of where the imposed thermal energy input stands in a very particular relation to the base material's composition + the shielding gas composition + the filler material's composition + (and this is in my opinion the crucial point) the welding speed [which must be relatively "high"] (compare the crystallization shape of both seam surfaces), then we can achieve that the centerline phenomenon may occur. Additionally to this, I guess that the heat dissipation conditions when welding a fillet joint supports the peculiar epitaxial solidification (see also Al's (803056)) wonderful explanations under: http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=90694#pid90694) of the melt having a quasi symmetrical "saw tooth" pattern (as to be seen on the attached pictures).

In other words, besides the mentioned above, one must adjust the exact point (balance) between thermal energy input - weld pool heat content - heat dissipation - weld pool surface tension - solidification range and weld pool motion in welding direction to achieve a centerline - at least upon the seam surface.

And thus basing on these great descriptions coming from Al, I would finally reply your question if the centerline may increase the risk of failure of a fillet weld as follows:

·  I would not tend to say that the centerline alone might cause an increased risk of joint failure. This due to the fact, that then all little "surface irregularities (ripples)" - caused by e.g. out of position welding (vertical up) -  should increase even such a risk. But...

·  If the centerline is mainly based upon an epitaxial grain solidification which can cause a severe segregation of e.g. crack raising elements, then I would recommend to have a double check how the macro- or micro-sections will look like. Since then - at least in my humble opinion - the centerline would penetrate the entire seam thickness and could thus - eventually - act as the "zipper" as you have mentioned it in your great question.

·  Finally I assume that as well for the pulsed arc mode exists even the balance between the different affecting parameters - inner as well as peripheral ones - responsible for the generation of a centerline, just as it astonishingly did as been seen for the low performance short arc mode.

So far my humble thoughts on this.

Thanks darren for your patience as well as for this wonderful question and I am looking forward to what you and the others will say on this*.

Best regards,
Stephan

* Perhaps I am completely wrong by what I have considered and stated previously...

** By the way, the slight reinforcement of the pulsed arc welded fillet (compared with the spray arc welded) on the Ed Craig picture might be caused by the slightly reduced seam length, since, as I assume, the wire feed rate is similar to the spray arc welded joint, the deposition rate should be similar as well (always presumed that the welding time is similar as well!).
Attachment: Spray_Arc.jpg (49k)
Attachment: Spray_Arc_1.jpg (6k)
Attachment: Short_Arc_Centerline.jpg (29k)
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 03-17-2008 19:06
Hello Stephan, I got in late on this so take that into consideration when you read what I have to say. After viewing the two pictures that darren linked in his post I wonder if the pulsed weld when compared to the straight CV one doesn't exhibit different lengths and apparent deposition due to the possible synergic relationship of current in the pulsed example and also a difference in penetration characteristics between the two processes(if there is greater penetration when comparing one to the other and different weld throat configurations the physical appearance of the finished bead may look similar, but due to different weld cross-sections the actual bead lengths may vary).
     As I understand, theoretically, 700 ipm is 700 ipm, yet with certain pulsing systems I believe you could actually have less wire being fed at the 700 ipm rate when comparing CV spray arc deposition to Pulsed deposition(Hi-Lo current cycling, possibly current changes and other pulse controlled parameters not being the same as straight CV).
     As to the centerline indication in weld beads, I have typically noticed this when welding at higher speeds with just about any welding process. A good example can be seen on the rootpass of a pipe weld while using the GTAW process. Gap a knife-edge pipe at 3/32" and use 1/8" filler, lay the wire in the groove and proceed to "wiggle" the root in with a fairly high rate of travel and the resulting weld pass will have a pretty little centerline in it. I have always been lead to believe this is a direct result of the type of cooling that is going on, the edges cool much more rapidly than the center and since it is the last to cool it sucks in just slightly leaving a line. I have also been lead to believe this is the same phenomenon that can lead to centerline cracking when welding certain materials with certain filler metals when the parameters and procedures aren't followed correctly. My $.02 and a great thread on APM's part. Best regards, Allan
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 03-17-2008 19:54
Hello Allan,

excellent points - as usual!

Thank you for that.

I guess you have provided some more food for the brain... :-)

Best to you,
Stephan
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 03-18-2008 18:50
Hello Allan,

forgive me, but I must come back on your excellent reply.

I have lots of work currently but you have pointed out some very interesting aspects being a great temptation for me to discussing them with you.

I guess I will straighten out yet, what my personal strange hypotheses were on the causes for the centerline generation.

Since I have seen that you have considered to a similar direction I guess that I should venture this challenge.

Please give me a bit time before I can come back on this (as I said, tons of work here some other don't love that much to do). :-)

But Easter is coming soon!!

Best to you,
Stephan

P.S. I agree 100%. This is a great thread, thanks APM!
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 03-18-2008 18:58
Hello Stephan, as usual, I look forward to a very exacting and informative reply. Will stay tuned for the response and commentary. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-18-2008 05:12
Stephan, in the pulsed weld links it LOOKS like the arc actually goes out between pulses. Does it? or is this just the way it apears when photographed?
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 03-18-2008 18:37
Hello Dave,

first off, thanks a lot for your response and question, respectively.

The short answer is: "No!"

The arc does definitely not extinguish while being controlled by the background current parameter algorithms.

The image has a rather lower quality and the balance between the backlight and the pulsed arc background period arc (having a level of low power and ionization) is not that accurate adjusted. I'm sorry!

To be honest, you're right!

It looks rather poor what I have stated as a link for "visualizing" the pulsed arc.

I have loads of truly excellent images on my hard-disk but all were too large to be attached to a post, unfortunately.

On the other hand it's hard for me, since I have sworn at that time to never advertizing something here in the forums. Not that I am ashamed but here I am your fellow Stephan and as this a private person and not an employee of a particular company. But believe me it is truly hard to find some usable high speed videos on the web showing the accuracy of a pulsed arc droplet transfer. Others may have more luck...

Thus I beg your forgiveness when I again use a link to a website, showing the pulsed arc (4043 Aluminum Wire Electrode of 1.2 mm diameter under Argon) in a higher resolution.

http://www.fronius.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-0AFF0106-A18E1A81/fronius_international/hs.xsl/79_831_ENG_HTML.htm

Here one can see both the droplet detachment and transfer respectively, and the low level of ionization over the background current period in a better way.

I hope that this fits better.

My best regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 03-18-2008 20:04
Stephan,
I always look forward to reading your post, and seldom actually have anything to add to your topics since you usually cover all of the bases.  This time though I would like to interject something.  As I'm sure you have read in other topics I have 20 some Fronius welding systems, TPS, Magic Wave, and even some small units used for hot wire plasma.  While I respect your decision to not promote or "advertise", I think that mentioning Fronius as the leader in pulse and pulse synergic welding is not a stretch of the truth.  We use pulse and pulse synergic on 90% of the robotic welding applications here and see Fronius being superior to the other units on the market.  We have done extensive testing on other power supplies and still come back to Fronius.  Also being so close to the North American headquarters helps us to see and test the newest technology.  Don't be so modest :)

Mark
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 03-20-2008 06:09
Mark,

thank you so much for your kind words.

Please know that I am surely one of your greatest fans in the forum!

Every post and explanation from you is always a highlight for me to read.

Thus your words are honoring and making me happy twice. :-)

Best to you,
Stephan
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-19-2008 02:45
    Stephan, thanks for the explanation and link. I knew that older systems had a background arc below the spray transition energy, but other than what I have read here and on Ed Craig's site the technical info I have on pulsed welding is about 30 years old, when they just used 1 phase from a 3 phase source at higher power to make the pulse, and as everybody now knows that doesn't help much.
     I agree with Mark that You don't need to be overly modest about Fronius products or working for them. I understand that You don't want to use this forum for advertizing, but mentioning their processes and methods would not bother Me, or most of Us [I hope].
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 03-19-2008 08:45
stephan .........amazing.  i am just a welder down here on the plant floor, i grasp some of what you said but without having my hand held she's a tough read for me.
i still am a little shaky on whether the centreline of fusion's grain structure causes a "deficiency" or at least a concern for cyclical or pressure type applications without pwht.
or does any one have empirical support either way on this topic.
thanks for your response. i hope someone is paying you a hell of a lot of money for that brain of yours. again amazing.
darren
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 03-20-2008 06:43
darren!

Please don't say that you're "just" a welder.

For me every welder is and remains an artist ruling one of the nowadays last most impressive and fascinating physical secrets, even the arc.

And as I said - and believe me this is the truth, I swear! - for me it is always a great honor to discussing with you!

As for your fine question if the centerline may cause a "deficiency" or at least a concern for cyclical or pressure type applications, please read what Allan - aevald - has excellently described, when he wrote:

"I have also been lead to believe this is the same phenomenon that can lead to centerline cracking when welding certain materials with certain filler metals when the parameters and procedures aren't followed correctly."

This implies some very interesting thoughts and is showing to a similar direction as your question does - at least as I see it.

I' ll have my first appointment in a few minutes and please let me coming back to this fantastic topic when I'll find the sufficient time to post my humble considerations.

Nonetheless I'll try to have a short look into the forum from time to time to see what the thoughts of the other appreciated fellows are on this...

Once again a heartfelt thanks and my best regards to you,
Stephan
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 05-10-2008 21:16 Edited 05-10-2008 21:25
Hello Darren,
Hello Allan,

first off, I have to split my response again, since I have exceeded the maximum text length!

Thus I send tow parts of one response and attach - as I have done once already before - the pictures and anything else I have prepared to the second part of the reply!

Sorry for that! Here is however, PART 1.

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I beg your pardon for coming back so late on this but it's shaking me toughly at present. I'm hoping it's not already too late to warming this topic up again, but it's pretty interesting thus I try it nonetheless.

Darren you stated:

"...I still am a little shaky on whether the centreline of fusion's grain structure causes a "deficiency" or at least a concern for cyclical or pressure type applications without pwht.
or does any one have empirical support either way on this topic..."

As I have already posted a time back, your concern is more than valuable to be discussed thus I would like to try to describe what I am thinking about. This - prior to be said - is my very own and personal understanding and interpretation of the phenomenon you have mentioned. Hereby following one of the most famous arc physicists Prof. John J. Lowke, who once said:

"Don't be afraid to thinking your wildest thoughts!",

I'll venture it.

As we have already discussed the "centerline" is a phenomenon taking place under particular circumstances and is also being observed in processes different to GMAW, e.g. GTAW (as excellently described by Allan). However, the physical conditions creating the "visible" centerline must be similar independently what kind of welding process is used. As we have spoken, it is assumed that the arc's current density has a strong influence on the generation of a centerline phenomenon and as we have seen, the arc's current density is an important parameter to approach the amount of arc pressure being exerted upon the molten weld pool. The higher current- or power density respectively, the higher the arc pressure and the deeper the surface depression of the weld pool. Since - when continuing the discussion on the GMAW processes - we have seen that there are slight differences to be observed between the shape and physical appearance of the "Pulsed Arc" and the "Spray Arc". Whereas the "Spray Arc" has a more and permanently constricted "hot core" the "Pulsed Arc" is somewhat more widened, at least in some particular regimes. This has to do with the modulation being influenced by electronic regulators and components. So far so good, one could say. But all this says nothing about your question if the centerline can have a negative influence on the mechanical properties of the joint or if the centerline might be an outwardly indicator for an inwardly mechanical property issue. To treat this particular question we should start again where Allan has posted:

"I have also been lead to believe this is the same phenomenon that can lead to centerline cracking when welding certain materials with certain filler metals when the parameters and procedures aren't followed correctly."    

I have thought a lot about this, since this - correct me when I'm wrong - is a more solid state physical subject and it correlates with the solidification behavior of both base- as well as filler material. Of course the arc - as the energy source - is the reason for any kind of change in the materials behavior, since if the base material - having specific physical properties - wouldn't be subjected to the thermal arc energy, we wouldn't need to talk about any kind of material's changes or problems after welding.

To finding eventually an answer we should have a look upon what happens when a weld is performed.

When we use the welding arc, we transfer thermal energy towards the solid base material. Hereby we receive the complete temperature range from solid to liquid. But - of course - just for a relatively little volume, even that one, being elevated above the base material's melting temperature. By the way, would - so my question - it actually be feasible to melt the entire base material's volume by using the same energy source, even our arc, whilst having the constant thermal performance as being used for generating the weld seam? For instance by adjusting the welding arc - no matter if non consumable or consumable - to burn infinitely upon the base material's volume - e.g. or workpiece? Hmmm, rather not, I would venture to assert, since the thermal efficiency of our welding arc is admittedly able to produce a small volume of melt but might surely be insufficient to accomplish a complete melting of the entire base material's volume, corresponding to our workpiece volume. But what, then my question, is the reason for that the workpiece or the base material is molten only in the area of where the weld has to be performed, even the fusion zone? Of course, and surely you might have thought by now, Stephan what kind of things are you trying to tell us. Everybody knows that each base material welded has some particular physical properties, amongst others, and this one plays the major role in what we are talking about, the thermal or heat conductivity! Naturally you are right. And why do I nonetheless ask these questions? Since the answers point us basically - at least in my humble opinion - in the right direction. To generate a "weld seam" there must be a specific relation between the energy transferred to the material to be welded - e.g. by an arc - and the energy effectively being transformed by the material itself to be molten in a particular area or volume. And this relation, which is a kind of imbalance can be described as generating a drop or gradient respectively, between the highest temperature and the surrounding workpiece temperature - often the room temperature. Well, now one could say, if we would increase the energy of the arc exorbitantly and remaining the base metals volume constant we should be able to even melt the entire volume of the base material. Yes, theoretically this might be performed, since we are "displacing" the imbalance towards a balanced condition. The proof therefore is the conversion of "increasing" the thermal energy by "decreasing" the metal's volume to be welded by remaining the arc energy constant. All we know that very small parts, i.e. small material volumes, of "normal" base materials are quickly molten down to the ground when not considering to reduce equivalently the arc energy as well proportionally to the base material's volume reduction.

What is also well-known is the fact that different materials have different values in terms of their heat conductivity. This again means that materials having a higher heat conductivity generate a flatter temperature gradient compared with materials having a lower thermal conductivity, which do generate a more steep temperature gradient. Furthermore it is naturally important what the wall thickness of the base material to be welded is, but on the other hand this again correlates with the material's volume again. Or the joint design. Is it a fillet weld - as previously discussed in our case - or a butt weld? Is the heat sink 2- or 3-dimensional? Questions over questions, and finally... is all this really that important? Well, I do not know, but I guess it can't hurt to know of all these basics when talking about the details hereinafter. And to reach finally the goal to have an approach to an answer on your appreciated comment:

"I still am a little shaky on whether the centreline of fusion's grain structure causes a "deficiency" or at least a concern for cyclical or pressure type applications without pwht.
or does any one have empirical support either way on this topic."

And this to clarify or at least to partially clarify should be the aim of all what has been said and done by now.

As Allan has stated in one of his previous posts, the phenomenon of the "centerline" was observed by him on GTAW-seams as he wrote:

"As to the centerline indication in weld beads, I have typically noticed this when welding at higher speeds with just about any welding process. A good example can be seen on the root pass of a pipe weld while using the GTAW process. Gap a knife-edge pipe at 3/32" and use 1/8" filler, lay the wire in the groove and proceed to "wiggle" the root in with a fairly high rate of travel and the resulting weld pass will have a pretty little centerline in it." 

This again is the reason for me to talk hereinafter about both welding a fillet as a butt-joint, too.

What I would like to use for achieving a better understanding of what goes on in a weld pool while solidification, is a particular example in steel making, namely "casting". By using this comparison it appears - at least in my opinion - good feasible to understand what goes on in the "great mold" the liquid weld bead is surrounded by - even the large volume of base metal. To understand what I mean I would like to attach a jpeg, showing a casting steel bar, see also the Casting_Process_Steel_Bar.jpeg. Here I just would like to treat the crystallization pattern to be recognized on the picture. The other interesting phenomenon - namely the blowhole - should be treated a bit later on. Since I mean that even this phenomenon might play as well a role in the generation of a centerline.

What is important here to mention also is the fact, that we are talking of welding "single layer beads" but not multiple layers, which would have a different crystallization appearance due to the annealing effects each layer induces to the previous ones. Well, we can thus roughly suppose that the "conventional" steel casting crystallization pattern can be quite sufficiently compared with the welding of a single layer bead, e.g. upon a steel plate having a defined thickness, or a single layer butt joint or even a single layer fillet joint. Of course strongly simplified. I request the understanding of all those fellows who would like to contradict. It's just to treat the physical forces behind the crystallization, and these are similar in both large as little melting beads in relation to all the numerous influencing facts not to be dealt with herein. Right, let's now have a look upon the crystallization to be recognized in the cross section of the steel casting bar. We can see relatively coarsen and large crystals being oriented from the outer towards the inner bar, whereas we can see a structure at the bar's center, being different to this appearance. To understand what occurs when molten steel is filled into a casting mold and cools down to and with this structures is appears reasonable to have firstly a look upon the schematical transversal cross section of a casting structure, please see also the attached Casting_Structure.jpeg. Please understand when I am here just scratching all the complex details normally necessary to explain why the structure appears as it finally does (e.g. the relation between nucleation and the linear velocity of crystallization), but I guess it is sufficient to describe the major causes for even this appearance. However, the crystallizations starts at the "coldest" areas ("Zone I" in the sketch) at the casting mold walls. Now I should explain why the crystals being formed are "fine grained" compared with the subsequent crystals but this is even a bit tricky. Thus we should just take into account, that by the high grade heat flow in these areas many nuclei formers crystals are generated. Many nuclei formers however mean fine grain structures - quite simplified. Subsequent to these fine grains - influenced by different factors - larger elongated columnar crystals are formed and grow freely and parallel one to another into the melt. This - in German - is called "Transkristallisationszone" what I have translated as  "Transcrystallization-Zone" (I guess there might exist an appropriate English term). This is the "Zone II" on the sketch and quite good recognizable as the "elongated columns" in the Casting_Process_Steel_Bar.jpeg. The "Zone III" on the sketch and the "inner" zone as observable in the Casting_Process_Steel_Bar.jpeg, is - and this, Darren, is - at least as I interpret it correctly - your concern when you say: "I still am a little shaky on whether the centreline of fusion's grain structure causes a "deficiency" or at least a concern for cyclical or pressure type applications without pwht.", since even this area contains all the constituents every metal contains in lager or smaller amounts, namely the unwanted "contaminants" and undesired trace elements. Pushed in front of the columnar grains the contaminants are collected finally in the center area of the bar forming nuclei formers and generate a globular grain growth and "directional uncontrolled" crystallization. This by the way is proven by the fact, that the lower the base metal's contamination is, the "longer" the columnar grains are finally. But as I said, this is an appropriate simplification of all what takes place whilst a metal or alloy respectively, is cooled down from its melting status and solidifying.

However, please keep in mind the orientation of the elongated columnar grains. What can be recognized on the Casting_Process_Steel_Bar.jpeg, is the more or less perpendicular orientation in relation to the mold's form used. We will find it later on again when talking about weld pool solidification. The orientation - and I mean this is important - is affected and caused by the heat flow or - dissipation direction. And we can find this quasi rectangular appearance also in single layer weld pools been generated without additionally measures (e.g. preheating). But more later...

Let's shortly summarize what we have spoken about by now.

The weld pool solidification of a single layer weld bead, welded upon a larger volume of base material (workpiece) appears to underlie the same physical laws as a steel casting solidification. This, since the base material is molten just in a small volume by the arc's energy and the surrounding workpiece or base material's volume acts similar to a casting mold in steel making. Even by conducting the heat from the melt along the "liquid-solid-interface" into the surrounding "colder" material.

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To be continued by PART 2.

Best,
Stephan
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 05-10-2008 21:18
Hi Darren,
Hello Allan,

here's the PART 2 of my response.

Sorry for causing that much confusion!

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So far so good... Now let's try to check if this summarize was - eventually - correct, by proceeding with the appearance of a weld cross section. 

How does the arc energy now generate the weld pool's volume and how does the arc itself affect the weld pool volume's shape? Or, to let me ask firstly, what is an arc actually? No, no, I don't want to treat this herein I guess this would be a step too far, isn't it? But, isn't it e.g. that the macro cross section of a bead on plate weld, under presuming to holding the base material, the welding parameters and the peripheral conditions constant, can be changed by only changing the shielding gas, used? Yes, of course. And we have spoken about this fact several times before. Even this is the specific Know-how of our fellows being specialized in the shielding gas sector. They know, that every welding application can be optimized by using the "tailored" shielding gas. But treating this in detail would surely go too far. Ed Craig's website gives for instance loads of valuable information on this. My approach whereas is only that every shielding gas (composition) yields very specific penetration profile characteristics. For instance pure Argon or Argon rich shielding gases combined with specific - rather low - amounts of chemical active components (e.g. carbon dioxide or oxygen) lead to the well-known finger type penetration profile. Other shielding gases lead to penetration profiles different to that. But however the penetration profile may look like it always just a relative small volume of metal being molten. And the fascinating detail when having a look upon the volume of molten metal is what Al (see also http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=90694#pid90694) has posted once as being the "epitaxial" grain growth (and by the way, I guess there can be no better explanation of grain growth as Al's). As he stated at that time (quote):

"In the case of a weld, initial grain growth occurs as atoms attach themselves to preexisting grains at the boundary between the liquid metal and the still solid HAZ."

The grain growth begins thus at the solid (base metal)- liquid (melt)-interface and here again the direction of growth is affected by the crystal's atomic orientation (in steel mostly the so-called <100> growth direction, see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_index). Astonishingly the growth orientation appears quite rectangular to the surface of the liquid-solid interface between melt and base metal. Just even so, as been seen in the Casting_Process_Steel_Bar.jpeg. However, what must be considered, is the great difference between a liquid solidifying in a casting mold and the weld pool of a linear weld seam. Even this difference is caused by the fact that the weld pool is a "non stationary" and highly dynamic melt being mainly influenced by the weld speed. How can this be expressed? Well, please forgive me when the subsequent explanation is probably differing from a scientific one, but as Stephen Hawking once said: "One mathematical formula reduces the number of readers by the half!".

"What is the structure of a weld seam?" Most likely everybody who reads this may say: "This is simple. A weld seam consists basically of a solidified melt being generated by an energy source - in this case even an arc!" Right. But due to highly dynamical processes within the weld pool (pool motions) in direct interaction with the solid base material (heat flow) and the third major parameter, even the welding speed, the weld seam can be seen as consisting of many "single layers". One adjusted to the other. Hopefully I have chosen the right words for describing this. Let's see... Let us imagine a particular volume of liquid weld metal been GMA welded upon a particular peace of base metal, e.g. an unalloyed steel coupon e.g. a steel plate. The arc should be maintained stationary for a particular period of time, this means we have welded a "spot". We presume to have welded even the "right" amount of time by using the "right" parameters for striking the "right" balance between the heat being transferred into, and dissipated by the surrounding base material, to avoid the treatment of these influencing factors. Now we can assume to find solidification regimes as been discussed for steel casting in a mold. In relation to the share of heat being conducted away from the weld pool on the one hand and the amount of thermal energy contained within the weld pool's volume we can suppose to find more or less columnar grown grains oriented from the boundary of the former solid-liquid interface towards the center of the weld. Even since - as we have heard - the heat flow is oriented straight into the base material and due to the "mold" (created by the solid base material which surrounds the melt) has a specific shape, e.g. a "finger type" shape. How, now my question, would the grain orientation then appear? Yes, the grains are oriented circumferentially around, and quasi perpendicular oriented from the boundaries towards the center. In other words, the columnar grain's growth occurs towards the opposite heat flow direction or, from the solid boundary into the liquid melt towards the center of the seam. But are the solidification effects of a weld seam comparable with the casting conditions in steel making? Does, for instance, the center of the seam appear to being susceptible for collecting all the material's contaminants being undesired? This - at least in my humble opinion - would point us namely in the direction of where you, Darren, have started when asking:

" ...on whether the centreline of fusion's grain structure causes a "deficiency" or at least a concern for cyclical or pressure..."

If so, and the center of a welding seam would contain all the undesired contaminants and the grains have grown straightly columnar from the solid-liquid interface to "meet" in the center, then perhaps the assumption lies near to achieve finally a seam, behaving under appropriate strains as a "zipper" as you called it. However, first of all we should have a look upon the shape of the penetration profile, since this is important for the later descriptions. In particular the "width to depth ratio" of a penetration profile plays an important role. Why? When the depth of a weld seam is larger than its width exists a specific risk for even the effect as discussed above. The contaminants are pushed in front of the columnar growing grains and when these "meet" in the middle a critical area can be generated. Different cases are possible here for that this area causes e.g. cracking. But these should not be treated herein further. However, what I have described may be clarified in a probably better way by having a look upon the attached Width_To_Depth_Ratio.jpeg. Here one can see what has been described previously. Deep penetrating welds have a shape as even the casting to be seen in the Casting_Process_Steel_Bar.jpeg. Or in other words, columnar structure welds having a W/D ratio lower "1" got the risk of concentrating the contaminants within the center of the seam and this again creates areas of rather poor properties. Cracks in worst case can emerge, as to be seen in the attached SAW_Low_W_D_Ratio.jpeg, which shows a single layer bead on plate Submerged Arc Weld, having a Width / Depth ratio << 1. Whereas the columnar grains within beads having a more or less flatter penetration profile grow circumferential around the solid-liquid interface and can thus push the contaminants towards the seam's surface. The risk of cracking can hereby - often - be reduced and similar mechanical properties can be supposed to exist over the whole seam's cross section area. See also the attached SAW_High_W_D_Ratio.jpeg.

Coming now to the welding speed. What we have discussed by now is just the steady case, e.g. welding a spot of liquid weld metal upon a steel plate. What happens now when the heat source may move? How would crystallization as shape of grains respectively, appear then? Coming back to what I have stated above. Normally we can now divide the weld seam into many single "layers". While the arc is moving the melt is in motion of course. By the thermodynamical properties of the base material and their relation to the welding speed, the heat forms specific "Isotherms", i.e. areas having constant similar temperatures which are located around the arc or heat source respectively. We have spoken about that several times. Why is this so important? Well, as by moving the heat source the heat flow takes place in all spatial directions and this means as well the heat is conducted into an area in front of the arc. The melt is emerging underneath the arc and when moving the arc, it is solidifying behind it. In other words, a particular volume of melt does solidify whereas another volume is being molten simultaneously. This again means, as mentioned above, one specific layer does solidify whilst another is simultaneously being generated. The volume of both does depend again to the thermal efficiency of the arc as to the welding speed.

And now we're finally on the way... The amount as the size of grains depend strongly to the heat content within the volume of melt as the thermodynamical properties of the material welded and... the welding speed itself! How is this to understand? Well, let's come back on what Al (803056) has so excellently posted in his reply as mentioned already above and let us remember on how the casting structure in steel making has looked like. The bar has had a primary grain structure, which was columnar, due to the grains grew directional opposite to the heat flow direction which was towards the casting mold's walls. Similar conditions we can often find in single layer bead on plate welds. The little difference in welding is that the grains are initiated in their orientation by the atomic orientation of even those grains forming at the solid interface of the base material, which acts as the mold's walls in steel casting. Due to this "original" orientation the columnar grain's orientation and size is quasi predetermined, please see also the attached Grain_Structure.jpeg. Now happens what Al has explained. Due to quite intricate metallurgical processes whilst solidification on the one hand and reduction of liquid melt on the other hand, a "substructure" of grains is generated. This substructure is depending on even the facts Al has explained. But mainly the appearance of the last solidifying grains depends on the front of the solidifying column grains. Even this appearance is influenced by a complex interaction between the temperature gradient, i.e. the steepness between high and low temperature, in the direction of solidification (towards the center of the seam) and the progress of the solidification front itself. There exist mathematical expressions for this, not to be treated though further herein. A great influence as well has of course the chemical composition of the material welded. Alloyed steels or even high alloyed steels behave different to low- or unalloyed steel grades. But since this is worth to be considered especially it should not be treated further herein, too. However, the segregation and microsegregation of elements can play an important role in grain growth and nucleation as well in un- or low alloyed steels. Well, of major importance for us should be the fact, that the grains growing finally have another structure than that ones being formed primarily.

To resume with the structure of a weld seam, the welding speed and how it can affect the crystallization...

As we have spoken now about the primary grain structure and we want to show the coherence between the welding speed and its influence on the grain's orientation we can use an extraordinary good suitable base material to represent this relation: Aluminum. Since aluminum doesn't have a secondary crystallization sequence but only shows a primary grain structure, we can use it excellently for expressing the welding speeds influence.

As written before the grains are preferably growing towards the direction of where both grain's atomic orientation and maximum temperature gradient fall together. Relating to the welding speed a specific weld pool geometry is formed. When moving the weld pool lower welding speed generate more elliptical weld pools, higher welding speeds whereas are showing a more elongated "tear drop" weld pool shape, please see also the attached Schematic_Weld_Pool_at_Different_Welding_Speeds.pdf. And what we receive by this movement is generally two liquid-solid interfaces. The first is being formed by the base material itself (point of where the crystallization begins) and the second one is formed between the continuously solidifying weld seam and the liquid weld metal molten by the arc. Since however the weld pool is - as described above - cooling down and thus solidifying, the grains strive to follow the temperature gradient, which is however not symmetric but is deformed by the weld pool's shape itself. Even elliptical at lower, and tear dropped, with a straight trailing portion, at higher welding speeds. I have prepared a Portable Document File to elucidate this subject in a better way, please see also the attached Schematic_Weld_Pool_at_Different_Welding_Speeds.pd. This means that the columnar grains in a "straight" high speed weld pool are most probably also straightly growing and may meet in the center of the seam, forming the well-known "centerline". In an elliptical weld pool whereas, the grains are tending to be "curved" and may end at the liquid-solid interface between the weld pool itself and the solidifying weld metal, without forming a distinctive centerline.

How this may appear in aluminum should be shown by using the attached GTAW_Aluminum_High_Speed.jpeg and GTAW_Aluminum_Low_Speed.jpeg. The first named shows the longitudinal cross section of an autogenous Gas Tungsten Arc welded high purity aluminum seam, whereas the latter shows the same base material as been welded with a lower welding speed. However, when having a view upon both cross sections one can recognize the rudimentary centerline in the "high speed" welding seam whereas a significant centerline in the "low speed" seam is rather missed and the grains have been curved by the heat source's or weld pool's motion, respectively. So far so good.

But now in the meantime, to finally come to the try to answer your question Darren, let me conclude by here.

As described we can see the moving weld pool as a continuous equilibrium between a liquid (weld pool) and a solid (weld seam) volume of metal, by itself having a particular composition. The growth of columnar grains is beginning at the point where the temperature gradient is most steep, even at the solid-liquid interface between the base material and the liquid weld pool. The grains grow - based upon the original atomic crystallization direction of the solid interface (base metal) - perpendicular to the solid interface through the solidifying metal (weld seam) towards the center of the seam. Depending on the speed the heat source (arc) is moving, the weld pool's shape can vary and may have a more elliptical (low speed) or more "tear dropped" (straight trailing liquid portion). Since the columnar grains are finishing their growth at the liquid-bead to form subsequently the liquid-solid interface between pool and - then originated - seam the columnar grains of a higher speed weld pool end at the elongated or  "straightened" area of the weld pool to meet in the seam's center and form a "centerline". Lower welding speed yield more elliptical weld pool shapes and the finish of the columnar grains is at the more rounded boundary of the weld pool to have subsequently a more curved structure, forming no distinctive "metallurgical centerline".

But... what we have spoken about by now was aluminum with a high grade purity. This again is important since the higher the metal's purity the higher the likelihood to achieve columnar grain growth after the metal was subjected to welding. Though what when having alloys or lower purity metals, containing eventually additional undesired trace elements?

Hmmm, as we have heard the emerging columnar grains, beginning to grow at the base metal's boundary, are "pushing" the trace elements, often having lower solidification temperatures before the "solidification front". Afterwards these elements are embedded in the center of the seam, i.e. they are actually forming the "metallurgical centerline". This however has thus however a different composition compared with the original base material's alloy and must have thus again, different technological properties (e.g. lower strength or ductility). Additionally to this mentioned there is another metallurgical effect. By having a "heterogeneous" liquid weld pool composition the additional elements or impurities can act as nuclei. These again may emerge directly within the solidifying pool, e.g. depending on concentration, temperature differences, etc. but not at the areas of the steepest temperature gradient (solid-liquid interface between base- and weld metal). The grains generated by even these nuclei are - different to those columnar grains growing from the base metal's side towards the seam center - "axial" oriented ones and often grow from the pool's interface longitudinal towards the solidifying seam. Due to the weld pool shape - as described - may vary depending on the weld speed (straight = high speed / elliptical = low speed) and the axial grains do have their origin even as well at the liquid-solid interface between weld pool and emerging seam, the width of the "axial grain trace" may vary as well. Higher welding speeds (straight end of trailing liquid metal) create narrower widths of axial grains, lower welding speeds whereas, wider ones. Even as well here I have prepared a little pdf to elucidate this, please see also the attached AA_ALLOY_1100_3003_Axial_Grain.pdf.

And this, Darren, I guess may be even that centerline you are a bit "shaky" on. Since even this centerline may combine both, an axial - and thus anisotropic (different spatial mechanical properties depending on the directions of forces impacts) behaving grain - and an additional higher concentration of eventually undesired trace elements. In worst case both in combination with an enhanced solidification range between the original base metal and the elemental concentration in the seam center may cause irregularities as cracking.

But... axial grain growth as described previously is rather normally not observed in un- or low alloyed steels as we are discussing these grades herein - at least to my best knowledge thus please correct me when I am wrong. Rather aluminum alloys and high alloyed (stainless) steels are susceptible for even the axial grain growth in the seam center and forming thus a "metallurgical centerline" which can react as mentioned above. Due to high alloyed steels are containing in many cases elements which are tending to segregate while solidification and are - above this - very often very complex in terms of solidification issues, one should - in particular in fully austenitic steels - pursue the weld-recommendations of the steel suppliers or other metallurgical experts. The AWS forum is favored by fortune to have some of the best of these experts aboard. E.g. "js55", "jon20013", "Al(803056)", "Henry (ssbn727)" and all the other great ones I have - beg your pardon - forgotten to mention here.

However, in terms of GMA welding un- or low alloyed steels (as discussed herein) the weld pool solidifies "inside of it" more or less homogenous, which is - as far as standard steel grades are processed - guaranteed by both a normally adequate steel quality (low amounts of undesired elements) and filler material quality and composition. Both in combination with an adequate weld processing should lead to most homogenous solidifying weld pools and subsequent quasi-isotropic weld seam's micro- or macro-structures, respectively. Please see also the attached GMAW_Cross_Section.jpeg, showing a GMA welded (shielding gas = 80% Argon/20% CO2) fillet joint cross section having a very homogenous and fine grained macro structure.

Oh, seems very much that I can come to an end, although everything been written above is a strong simplification and as I guess it's much more complicated as been tried to being explained. However please consider that this was my humble personal interpretation of what might occur when a "metallurgical centerline" (i.e. one to be "shaky" on) is being created by the fascinating interactions between the arc and the base material to be welded. Many of you may say: "Stephan, you have forgotten to mention this and you have forgotten to treat that!" and I would agree with you, but nonetheless and thus hereby requesting your understanding, all the naturally - extremely interesting existing relations and coherences in weld pool liquidation, existing and subsequent solidification are surely quite too much to be treated within this humble answer on you. Many outstanding experts have written a huge number of extremely good books on these metallurgical issues. Much better than everything I, as your humble colleague, might ever explain herein.

But nonetheless, please let me thus shortly conclude to not overstretching your patience by continuing writing and writing. :-)

I do not know if there exists that term but the "metallurgical centerline" can be seen as where the columnar grains emerged on both sides (solid-liquid interface) meet in the seam's center. Depending to the content metallurgical trace elements (desired or undesired) these elements can either form phases different to the original metal's or alloy's composition or these can be "trapped" in between the columnar grains growing from both sides of the seam towards its center. This again can - amongst other factors not been treated herein - yield negative influences in regard to the mechanical properties of a weld seam containing such a "metallurgical centerline". Hence it can be - in worst case - seen as a metallurgical "zipper" as you have named it. However, and finally. I do not implicitly mean that the presence of an "outer" centerline as discussed already formerly in some other posts, is stringently associated with the presence of a "metallurgical centerline" based upon the coherences as mentioned above. Why..? Well, as I have mentioned first when I have spoken about the "blowhole" in the Casting_Process_Steel_Bar.jpeg, I mean to see a coherence between the blowhole phenomenon in cast steel bars or blocks and the "layer solidification" (as mentioned above) of a liquid weld seam's pool. The blowhole phenomenon is based upon the natural volume reduction of a liquid. Most metals have - as once being solidified - a lower volume in their solid state compared with their volume in liquid state. The reduction in volume however is depending to the physical specifics of the metal (density,...).
Let us now assume that a GMA "spot" weld (as previously discussed) is welded upon a steel plate, so we can assume further, that the weld deposit's volume should be less after its solidification, compared with its liquid state. Thus, so far as I am right, we should see a more or less indentation in the spot, the significant proof of the volume reduction. This, you may correct me, is to be seen very often and is as well often combined with other irregularities (e.g. the "famous" end crater pore). Now let us assume that the weld pool is in motion and the heat source as well, then the GMA weld seam is solidifying continuously layer by layer and each little layer's volume element does shrink when solidifying and reduces hereby its specific volume. The result - please do not laugh on me - might be a continuous "chain" of microscopic "blowholes" yielding added one to another even our "outer centerline" although - at least in those steel grades we are discussing about - no inner "metallurgical centerline " is to observe. I have marked the GMAW_Cross_Section.jpeg as you can see with an arrow and a question mark, where I truly suppose an outer centerline could eventually exist (slight indentation in the surface), although no inner "metallurgical centerline" or at least any significant kind of grain coarsening in the seam center could be recognized. But, as I already mentioned: "Don't be afraid to thinking your wildest thoughts!", and hence this is my very own humble assumption and I do not know if anybody has ever investigated this by now.

Alright dear fellows, so far so good!

I naturally know that I have forgotten to treat so many interesting things herein, so I beg you understanding. But as you know I have returned even yesterday from a business trip to the great United States of America, it is > 11.00 pm meanwhile and my wife and son have proven lots of understanding by now for that I wanted to write this humble response on your interesting question. So I do not want to overstretch their and in particular her understanding, you know, it's as well mothers day tomorrow as well.

Thus I say thank you for proving patience until I have answered!

Best regards,
Stephan    
Attachment: Casting_Structure.jpg (59k)
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Attachment: GMAW_Cross_Section.jpg (137k)
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-10-2008 22:56
Whew Stephan! it's going to take a bit of time to give due consideration to all that you have presented in your latest treatise. I do have some ideas with regard to many of the topics that you presented in your postings here. Like you, I have some time constraints so I'll have to get back to this again a bit later. I thoroughly appreciate all of the information and thoughts that you have shared, doing justice to them is another story. Be sure to go out and enjoy your stay with the family, as you should, and also make your wife's mothers day a great day. Best regards, Allan
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 05-12-2008 10:30
Hello Allan!

Thank you so much for your kind reply...

Please believe me, I am greatly honored by your appreciation! :-)

Best to you,
Stephan
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 05-20-2008 19:02
that was hard for me until i saw the pictures, then it all became pretty clear, thanks for that response stephan, do you have any grain structure pictures from smaw and fcaw for low carbon steels so as to be able to compare. from what i see in the pictures that if there where no pwht on the gmaw fillet welds especially if welded out side of optimum parameters there is a possibility of the centerline failing because of either the grain structure, a inherent crack or because of of metallurgical constituents collecting within the "zipper zone. now i know why spray transfer gmaw is frowned on in critical application welds that are not subject to pwht.
thanks stephan
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 05-21-2008 20:20
Hey Darren,

I greatly appreciate your kind feedback!

Thanks for that!

Unfortunately I haven't found corresponding pictures in regard to FCAW weld deposit macro cross sections in my "private library". Perhaps some others may contribute somewhat in terms of this..? Would be great!

But nonetheless please let me finally attach some expressive weld deposit macro sections prepared in the course of some very interesting investigations concerning the influence of Titanium as a micro-alloying element, on C-Mn steel weld metals.

These investigations were accomplished to evaluate the influence of specific micro-alloying (amounts of ppm [1ppm = 0.0001%]) elements on the nucleation behavior of Carbon-Manganese weld metals. Normally the limit of where micro-alloying begins is > 5ppm, at least to my best knowledge. One might say, that we are talking about "homeopathic" doses of alloying elements. However, there are very especial effects to be detected when treating the weld metal - having "normal" compositions with low amounts of an element as mentioned above.

But...

Please see hereinafter attached two macro sections of multiple layer weld deposits carried out by using the Shielded Metal Arc Welding process and see how wonderful the weld deposit has been tempered by the weld beads welded subsequent to even the previous ones. Only the surface layers have a more or less epitaxial columnar grain growth. And by welding the final layer (center of the three surface beads) both previous welded bead grain structures (left and right from the center) were tempered and partially fine grained.

The weld metals were alloyed with 0.6...1.8% Mn and the welds were carried out by using a basic cover electrode type. Weld geometry was specified by ISO 2560-1973 and the total number of layers used to fill the groove was stated with "27". Direct current (electrode positive) at 170 Ampere and 21 Volt was used. Nominally heat input (whatever it is) was 1kJ/mm at an interpass temperature of 200 °C (392 °F).

As to be recognized very clearly a "tempering" has taken place and the columnar grains were reduced or have partially completely disappeared. It was found out, that titanium has the optimal effects in terms of reducing the average columnar grain width at contents of ~ 40 ppm and ~200 ppm. Here one could adjust the minimum average columnar grain size in relation to the weld metal composition as chosen for the attempts.

Hopefully these macro-sections may satisfy your imaginations of how a "tempering" of the epitaxial grown columnar grains does appear when using multiple layer technique is used instead of a single layer technique.

Best regards and thanks again,
Stephan
Attachment: Low_Titanium.jpg (56k)
Attachment: High_Titanium.jpg (64k)
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 03-20-2008 06:25
Dave,

my hearty thanks to you as well!

You are truly right.

There was tremendous progression in the field of transistorized power supplies used for pulsed Gas Metal Arc welding.

I had a great discussion yesterday with a very good colleague of mine who has - what I haven't known by yesterday - worked in the 1970's as a member of a team of specialists in the Cranfield University in England. The head of even this team was the famous Dr. Chris Allum (now I have to bow my knees before my colleague :-)).

They have already at that time developed a pretty fine welding power source for pulsed arc welding and what he has told me was very impressive, believe me. Even the work of some very impassioned people...

I could see - by devotionally listening to my colleague - that actually they had the abilities already at that time to build extraordinary good power supplies. However the great breakthrough was - at least in my humble opinion - surely achieved by the further advancement of electronical components as MOSFET transistors etc.

Thank you once again and my best regards,
Stephan


Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-21-2008 04:43
Stephan, The MOSFET technology is responsible for the power switching circutry We have available today, it has allowed great improvements in many areas of industry. Can You tell Me the aproximate frequency of the modern pulse systems? [without having to kill Me afterwards] :-) :-) :-)
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 03-21-2008 12:56
Hello Dave,

of course!

It's a pleasure... without killing you afterwards! :-)

To my best knowledge the existing welding power supply generations do contain MOSFET's having a frequency of 100 kHz.

Although - so far I know - there are meanwhile MOSFET's available switching with a frequency of 200 kHz.

Who knows, perhaps those ones will be used for future generations of welding power supplies.

But honestly I guess that also 100 kHz is not that bad when considering where everything has started, as you have so excellently mentioned in your previous post as you said:

"...when they just used 1 phase from a 3 phase source at higher power to make the pulse...".

The very first high performance transistors been used for sophisticated power sources had - likewise to my best knowledge - a frequency of 25 kHz and hereby - as imaginable - somewhat issues with ripples in the secondary current's regime. This whereas can be neglected or quasi forgotten meanwhile.

So far for now and furthermore: "Live long and prosper!" :-)

Best regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-22-2008 03:34
Thanks. I didn't know at what point the information becomes proprietary.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 03-22-2008 12:25
IGBT Anyone?

Anyone ever heard of Guilliland GMAW Pulse Power Sources???
US Navy shipyards have been using them with excellent results for decades!!!

Good Hunting ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
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