Do you try to make a weld pass or make a weld fail?

Date 05-06-2014 17:46

The weld passes or fails on its own merit in accordance with the acceptance criteria it's being judged against. If I can't make a call in good conscience then I will get a second opinion. If it's still too close for a second opinion, I'd rather err on the side of caution and fail the weld. In 20 years, I've had that happen only a few times. Usually, if a weld fails, it's evident. When taking the Part B, I remember one of those samples being rejected for a porosity that was 1/32" too large. CWIs are similar to judges: in a perfect world, we should be impartial and judge the weld on its merits. I don't take it personal - even when the welder does.

By js55

Date 05-06-2014 18:03

Companies make money on parts passing, not failing. A CWI that makes a habit of looking to fail parts will soon be looking for work and contemplating his own failure, if I have anything to do with it. Customer imposed 3rd party CWI's are the worst, though a minority. It is more than once I have gone over their heads to make the case that we did not quote the work in compliance with the criteria this numb F is calling. If you wish to hold to his criteria the price will go up next time and you need to know why.

By MRWeldSoCal (***)

Date 05-06-2014 18:12

What do you do when you inspect a job and you missed something, maybe a tiny crack out of 1000 welds, but had already turned in the paper work?

By SCOTTN

Date 05-06-2014 18:40

Try to make a weld pass or make a weld fail? I never try to do either one. Their job is to produce welds that meet job specifications and code requirements. Passing or failing parts is our job. If they fail to do their job, you still have to do yours and reject what you interpret that doesn't meet project specifications and code criteria. If my interpretation is that the parts meet project specifications and meet code criteria, they pass. If they don't, they fail. That's my approach, and I don't argue with anyone. I'll listen, but I won't argue. Do they argue when you pass questionable welds or just when you reject questionable welds? We use our best judgement and our best interpretations. If your best judgement and your best interpretation is to reject something, then reject it, and don't back down unless someone can show you that it does meet project specifications and code criteria. Be open minded and listen to why they think the part should pass. If they're wrong, then try to educate them with references to a job specification or specific code criteria. Some appreciate the knowledge, while some still want to argue, but what's in black and white can't be argued. As jstepp mentioned, some welders take it personal, but if you are correct that something doesn't meet a specification or a code, you cannot jeopardize your integrity and back down.

I agree with js55 that customer imposed 3rd party CWI's are the worst, at least in my experience with them.

By MRWeldSoCal (***)

Date 05-06-2014 18:53

I understamd what you are saying, and it is black and white. I get arguments both ways, its starting to become quite stressful. For instance, an aluminum job I did, I missed a few incredibly tiny cracks. This was for maybe 500 4" welds... It was just human error, didnt see them. Just making me think I need to run a loop over everything I ever touch again just to make sure. I hate getting a follow up that I missed something when I went through each weld. Im only human but damn do I feel like a failure. Failed to do my job and get every detail accounted for.

By SCOTTN

Date 05-06-2014 19:17

I've always tried to be the best I can be and account for every detail. No matter how hard I try, I make mistakes. I don't like to make mistakes, period, but no matter how hard I try, I still make them. I've missed things too. When I miss something, I'm harder on myself than anybody else could ever be. Missing something doesn't make you a failure. Although I don't like excuses, we are all going to make mistakes. The problem is not in making a mistake, the problem the same mistake being repeated over and over. If we learn from a mistake and we don't repeat it, the problem is solved and we're moving forward. If we continue to make the same mistake over and over, that's the real problem. I don't look at every weld with my magnifying glass and flashlight, but because of the possibility of hairline cracks, I make an effort to occasionally use them to look at a few of the welds being made by each different welder.

By js55

Date 05-06-2014 19:35

Like a cornerback in the NFL you need to have a short memory.
Move on. We all miss stuff.
The magnifier is a useful tool but not an expectation unless stated as such in the specifications.
It is not within the responsibility of a CWI to anticipate the special properties of an alloy to determine special failure expectations. It is good info, and is taught to a limited extent, but it CANNOT be an expectation of an inspector. It is incumbent upon the materials engineer to make these phenomena explicit.

By MRWeldSoCal (***)

Date 05-06-2014 20:04

Very insightful and helped make my day a little easier. I didnt know that magnification wasnt a common requirement. Like SCOTTN said, I dont make teh same mistake twice and being a beginner (2 years in) CWI Im lucky to have a boss who helps me out and can get me out of sticky situations where a lesson was learned. Each mess up makes you that much sharper and ready for the next job. Thanks for the insght.

By js55

Date 05-06-2014 20:16

Keep in mind that surface defects that are difficult to see with the unaided eye are what PT and MT are for.

By bozaktwo1 (***)

Date 05-16-2014 17:03

You're always going to miss stuff. We're human, not machines. Don't let it get you down.

By SCOTTN

Date 05-06-2014 20:19

That's why I just use it occasionally. I'm looking at every weld anyway, so I periodically look at a few with some magnification.

By vagabond (***)

Date 05-06-2014 18:53

It should be somewhere in black and white. But sometimes it's not. Then it's a judgement call. I go by the book if it's possible. BUT. . . I have the part of the book in my hand to back me up. To many folks adopt their own rules. That isn't our job.

By Mwccwi

Date 05-07-2014 12:07

Have you ever heard of the Pareto’s rule 80/20 or Deming’s 85/15. I know that we like to try for perfection but it is not a realistic expectation. We learn from our mistakes. When I was young I was in the process of beating myself up (much like yourself) and a superior reminded me that he has only ever heard of one perfect being and the rest of humanity rewarded him for is perfection by nailing him to a wooden cross, giving him a thorn crown, stabbing him with a spear, and spitting on him. I don’t to be perfect anymore.

By MRWeldSoCal (***)

Date 05-07-2014 14:49

That is also a great point!

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 05-07-2014 16:39

LIKE!

By MRWeldSoCal (***)

Date 05-08-2014 15:46

Al-
Thanks for the input. I had a question regarding what is the definition of visual inspection is. I went on this aluminum job, a guy from another comany followed over my inspection job with a 10x loop and found quite a bit more than I did with my naked eye. I maybe missed 3 tiny crack >.1 long in 500 welds... Any how, it doesnt say in D1.2 anywhere that I need a loop, most of what they found they used a loop for. So I went back with my own loop and found even more. I used my naked eye to locate possible cracks that I would then confirm with the loop. ended up finding in the ball park fo 20+ more cracks in starts and stops over these 500 welds. Now they never specified 10x magnification, but since I missed the last ones we told the company we would be using the loop and re-inspecting the same parts before the final report was turned in. Now they are asking where the code defined visual inspection. Im having trouble finding it. Any thoughts?

Jordan

By WeldinFool (**)

Date 05-08-2014 18:48

Thank you, Al, for being such a good example to us. Your comment should be tattooed on the forehead of every CWI out there! It just ruins my day when I have to deal with an inspector (usually a customer's third-party yahoo) that comes in with the attitude that he's going to find something wrong if it kills him! You know who you are!! Heed the words of the great one!!!

By 803056

Date 05-08-2014 21:15

I do have it tattooed on my body. It is in a place that isn't easily viewed by the public.

Al

By SCOTTN

Date 05-12-2014 11:26

My ex girlfriend had a tattoo of a sea shell on her inner thigh. If you put your ear to it, I swear you could smell the ocean.

By Superflux (****)

Date 05-12-2014 20:23

Scottn,
You dated my first wife????

By SCOTTN

Date 05-13-2014 12:19

John,

I don't mean to drift away from the question that was originally posted, but to answer your question, I’d recently joined one of those dating websites. I was asked to describe my ideal woman, so I put: "I love Page 3 girls, they're so sexy" At first, I wondered why I didn't get many responses, then I remembered the P button was broken on my keyboard. Anyway, to make a long story short, I met her on a dating website called Furrymates.com. I’d always tried to avoid internet dating sites because they match you up with people who share your interests, and frankly, I don’t want to go out with a weirdo. Anyway, she showed up with pigtails under her arms and it was love at first site. On our first date I had to defend her honor. We were out on a picnic and as I was about to serve the dessert, someone called her fat, and I was like, “Oh hell no you didn’t”. As I got up to defend her honor, I told her to “hold the cake, but don’t eat it”. On second thought, and just to be safe, I took it with me because she was looking at it real funny. That look was a little scary to me so after I dropped her off, I went home, deleted my Furrymates.com profile and switched to a site called Singles With Food Allergies.

By 99205

Date 05-13-2014 15:36

What the hell, my wife read that and punch me in the shoulder.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 05-13-2014 16:21

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 05-13-2014 16:39

- ssbn727

Ditto :lol:

By Superflux (****)

Date 05-13-2014 18:21

Back to the OP.
Every weld is suspect until proven different.
There's really no such thing as the perfect weld.
Under scrutiny, a weld must pass muster on it's own merit.
When a spec calls for random NDE beyond visual, you have to realize that there are some that would not pass.
Cost and over design dictates whether the machine or structure can accept a certain degree of substandard components. And a good insurance policy.

By 803056

Date 05-13-2014 21:44

Scott come through again!

Al

By MRWeldSoCal (***)

Date 05-09-2014 18:29

Thank you Al! and I know a great tattoo guy incase you ever want that! haha

Jordan

By MRWeldSoCal (***)

Date 05-13-2014 17:39

I referenced 5.5.4 (D1.2) to the customer and I think that cleared things up quite a bit. Thanks again Al. Learned a lot from that little bit, and glad to move forward with the knowledge. THANK YOU!

Jordan

By eekpod

Date 05-14-2014 19:10

MRweldsocal
I would agree with you that there are two types of inspectors; those who look to fail a weld and those who look to pass a weld.
IMO these two different mentalities come from the two different sides of the coin; one being the fabricator/manufacturer who is trying to keep up production and schedules and get parts out the door and the other being the 3rd party/ outside inspector who is in the field or visiting the shop and is there as a 2nd line of defense. An outside inspector generally doesn't care about production schedules and only does his job as required, while the shop guy understands the impact to the schedule and budget and may decide to try to accept when its permitted.
I just read through a string of e-mails a few minutes ago on another forum where the shop guy was saying what his third party inspector said "no porosity, no U/C...blah blah blah. My point being is that guy isn't going to pass anything and will mark up a lot of stuff but if held to the letter of the law (IE code book) some of that may be acceptable.

It's just like in life, there are negative people and positive people, and you have to learn to deal with them both and where you feel comfortable. Make sure that you can sleep at night once you make a decision and admit when you made a mistake and you'll go far.

By SCOTTN

Date 05-14-2014 20:55

I inspect as fast and as efficiently as I can and I only accept what is acceptable. Meeting deadlines is not really a concern because I can never sacrifice quality for quantity, regardless. Interference between inspection and production should be kept to a minimum, and with me, that minimum is only exceeded when there are rejections. It's important to remember that an inspector functions as the judicial representative of an organization. It is his responsibility to judge the quality of the product in relation to to applicable codes and specifications and be able to interpret both with regard to limitations and intent. The importance of an inspector's attitude cannot be overemphasized. It determines the degree of his success or failure. For success he is very much dependent on the cooperation of his associates in all departments, and he must command their respect in order to obtain it. His attitude plays an important part in this. Since many of his decisions may involve marginal material, all his decisions must be considered, impartial, and consistent. An inspector can neither be stubborn nor swayed by persuasive arguments. Under no circumstances can he seek favor or incur obligation through his decisions. The most difficult period for an inspector is his first few weeks on any new location. During that time, those with whom he must deal will be testing him for weakness in policy. If he is informed, fair, consistent, and if he follows the intent of the codes and specifications, he will earn respect and cooperation.

By MRWeldSoCal (***)

Date 05-14-2014 22:02

The routine is definitly getting easier the more I do field work. Its just crazy how people want to lawyer you and nit pick the way in which you do things. Ive learned from my mistakes and havent made the same one twice. Its just real funny cause I actually know quite a bit about welding, I have been a full time welder for the last 10 years, with all the main processes and when a client sees me they think "this guy must be joking" I just turned 29 last week, but welding is my life and I call it like i see it. Just hate that they try and feed off the idea of me making an error. For example I talked to the foreman when I was inspecting and found a fillet weld that had a very odd incomplete fusion issue at one end. We even discussed the LOF in front of each other. I was clearly rejected, I explained to him why (we both knew why, it was obvious) then in a conference call he tried to throw me under the bus about it, that it wasnt critical. As a welder, it was bad, as a CWI, it was bad. When I get in those situations I want to show no mercy, but I keep it cool.

Jordan

By 803056

Date 05-15-2014 01:01

Scott, I'm happy to see you saved the "Welding Inspection Handbook."

There are a number of inspectors that would do well to review it from time to time.

Al

By SCOTTN

Date 05-15-2014 11:55

Al,

The copy I have is from 1968. I thought it was relevant to post some of it's requirements.

Jordan,

I've heard the same thing over and over..... "that it's not critical". My response has always been the same.... "The code doesn't differentiate between whether it's critical or not, and if it doesn't meet code, I must reject it". It either meets the code or it doesn't. Let's not complicate things with a bunch of invalid excuses. When the company signs a contract agreeing that the workmanship will comply with AWS D1.1, it becomes my responsibility to see that it does, and I don't back down. If a supervisor is aware of a situation with a welder who is making welds that aren't meeting codes and specs, and he doesn't do anything to correct it, saying "it's ok", then he becomes part of the problem. To me, you're either part of the problem or part of the solution. There is no in between. The next time someone tries to throw you under the bus on something that's "not critical", tell them it may or may not be critical, but plain and simple, the code doesn't differentiate between whether it's critical or not.

By 803056

Date 05-16-2014 02:38 Edited 05-16-2014 03:13

Hello Scott;

The Inspection Handbook is a valuable resource for anyone that is tasked with welding inspection. Considering its physical size, it contains a wealth of information on the subject of welding inspection. It is good to see that people find it informative and useful.

A new edition of the handbook is in the final stages of revision and editing. The new edition should be available in the near future. I believe it is a useful resource for anyone engaged in welding inspection.

I was looking back through the responses to the original post. I would like to add the following comment;

I assume every weld is acceptable unless I discover a deficiency. It is easy to become a pessimist or cynical in our business. It is easy to assume every weld is suspect until it is proven acceptable. However, most welders/fabricators take pride in their work. When mistakes are made, they are usually inadvertent or the result of being unfamiliar with specific project or code requirements. The trick (or skill) of being a third party inspector is imparting knowledge without interfering with the fabricator's responsibilities. As a TPI, it is not my job to be the fabricator's consultant or take over the contractor’s quality control responsibilities. Detailed inspection reports that include a reference to the specific clause that is the basis of noncompliance can provide the contractor with the information needed to be better informed and knowledgeable. My experience is that most contractors do not make the same mistake if they are made aware of a specific code requirement.

There are always exceptions; there are a few contractors that have black hearts that try to cut every corner and figure anything is fair as long as they aren’t caught. They are the exception and I use a very different tack when they show their true colors. In those instance (as rare as they are), I find that the only time they "learn" is when it costs them money. It is interesting how quickly they change their ways when the money is free flowing out of their wallet.

Best regards - Al

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 05-16-2014 11:18

My copy is the 1980 second edition. It came with the truck load of books that was included in the price for taking the seminar and CWI exam. I also find that the Welding Inspection Technology book is handy to reference every now and again.

By MRWeldSoCal (***)

Date 06-12-2014 21:23 Edited 06-13-2014 15:41

Al-

This original post was during an aluminum job I was working. Just now actually another job that was similar came into our lab. Now my concern is also the level to which we inspect. I know in the handbook I believe it states that you should not go into an inspection with assumptions based on prior knowledge of the material or process related to it. As in this case with aluminum and cracking. So when an Aluminium job comes in I shouldn't hunt right to where I know cracks occur if im hopefully understanding that correctly. As for earlier today, we see a crack here with the naked eye, that creates the idea that there may be more, right? So then you see what may be an indication of some sort, so you use magnification to either confirm the crack or dismiss it,turns out, its a crack. So now your eyes focus like a laser on all these spots and as soon as you know it you are hunting cracks all across the part. Now cracks are unacceptable in D1.2, and I take that as on any level a crack is unacceptable. The problem with that is you can find cracks in aluminum with a 10X pretty easy if you know where to look and even worse if you had a 100X you could find even more. So where does it stop? Ive almost been told flat out if you can hardly see the crack to let it go, and morally once I see a crack, and it is a crack, I cant just forget it or over look it. An associate of mine had told me that we dont have time to hunt down cracks with magnification on every single weld, and I agree, but once you see one where does it stop? How far does the rabbit hole go?

Jordan

EDIT: Should was supposed to say SHOULDN'T

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 06-12-2014 23:28

Man, I think I passed over this as I started coming back around here because it was listed with a reference to Aluminum. But what a great conversation.

Jordan,

Remember, MT, PT, as well as magnification are AIDS to VT. When in your current circumstances your primary objective is going to be to use caution going beyond normal VT with the 'naked' eye unless specified by the contract or your boss.

Finding a 'stopping' point is not really difficult when you use the code as your starting point. If you see a code discontinuity you can use an aid to VT to determine it's extent. But, don't use the AIDS to FIND the discontinuity in the first place.

Now, obviously that can seem a little contradictory. But we do perform VT first and then go to MT or PT or magnification. They can be used when we have first seen something that we want to examine more fully even though not called for in the contract. But, when called for in a contract, they can even be used when you did not see it first with the naked eye. The customer's option is to enhance inspections to find indications that may not be easily seen until highlighted beyond normal vision. But that is not the inspector's option.

You are really going to have to examine the codes applicable to the work, have a heart to heart with the employer and discern his motives, intentions, and reasoning, and then make your own soul satisfying decisions based upon all the wisdom and wise counsel you can pull together.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By MRWeldSoCal (***)

Date 06-13-2014 15:59

Brent,

I had a little typo, I typed should instead of shouldn't. But anyways, if you see what appears to be a crack but cant confirm it without power what justifies using the magnification? Once the decision is made to use it, everything you see that may be an indication is now under magnification right? As I was saying and I think we agree, a crack is a crack is a crack. Myself as well as some of our PT guys have been in situations where we have been flagged as missing cracks that were found by say, our customers purchaser, that I did not see because I did not use a loop. They then come back at us with "these guys missed 10 cracks!". I am trying to nip this for future jobs because I will never know first hand what our customers customer is going to do and what extent they will inspect it at. It all funnels back to me. Where I work we do PT, MT, RT, VT... Sometimes I go do VT first, But as far as processing goes, we usually run parts through PT first. I surely use the code as a starting point, and I understand that because of one customer experience I cant justify being so critical to everyone else, BUT even the aluminum jobs since I have found cracks and its rolled down that same path. Since most are non military, the customer is not as happy when the loop is out. Seems like the contractor hates the loop while their customer wants it. Ive noticed the purchaser usually has no knowledge of the problems inspecting 500 aluminum stitch welds on a single cyclically loaded part. But hey.

Jordan

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 06-13-2014 16:54

You said: "Seems like the contractor hates the loop while their customer wants it."

Which one do you work for ? :)

A notion that has not come up in this conversation and might be helpful in the long term, especially if you are employed by the person actually doing the welding that you inspect..........

Train the welders to do a high level visual inspection of every weld they complete and provide an atmosphere where zero faults are passed forward in the flow of work.

Welders (especially manual welders) need to be completely proficiant in visual inspection, knowing the acceptance criteria, weld sizes and peciuliar requirements of individual contracts... This can be communicated in work doccuments, training, tags that follow work through process etc.

I truely dispise the notion of an inspector/weldchecker stationed at the end of every production line, looking at welds all day long, if the contract or code does not demand such a waste of time.

If the process is under control... The welders should be able to perform VT and repair any defect they see prior to the work moving forward.

Fully expecting flames on this one.

.

By SCOTTN

Date 06-13-2014 17:53

Quality should be built into the product, not inspected into it.

By electrode (***)

Date 06-13-2014 18:07

Perfect.
That heavily reminds me of ISO 3834: 'Quality requirements for fusion welding of metallic materials'.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 06-13-2014 18:46

One of the very few blessings ISO has given to us may also be applied here.

Workmanship Samples !

Reproduce those production configurations that are causing you trouble... Including those itty bitty cracks that *almost* need a loop to be detected...

Have them clear coated and mounted in such a way that the welders can inspect them with and without magnification... This way they learn what to look for.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 06-13-2014 18:38

Thank you for distilling my wall of text into a single line :)

Guaranteed work !

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 06-13-2014 20:14

I like it Scott!

Is it original or did you 'borrow' it?

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By SCOTTN

Date 06-14-2014 11:43

Thanks Brent. I was on the internet, looking for quality quotes to print and put on my wall and I found that one. I also have something from Vince Lombardi on my wall that says "Gentlemen, we will chase perfection, and we will chase it relentlessly, knowing all the while we can never attain it. But along the way, we will catch greatness." I've always believed in striving for perfection, because if I didn't, I knew I could never be the best I could be. I never knew that Lombardi quote even existed until a few years ago. When I read it, I thought to myself, that's what I'm talkin 'bout, and I've tried to instill it in my 10 year old daughter and my four step children. All girls. Sometimes when I'd gotten on them about something, their response was always the same. "I'm not perfect". To that, I'd say, I know that, but if you don't give it your best shot and get into a mode of constant improvement, you will never be the best you can be.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 06-14-2014 14:55

Very good. I like both.

During my recent sabbatical from here and time of self examination I also adopted a variation of something our Pastor says a lot. He uses it toward work done around the ministry and says 'We do everything here in the Spirit of Excellence', because it is to glory the Lord. It isn't about us.

I modified it somewhat in the new footnote on my posts, and even shorter because it wouldn't let me post that many characters: Excellence is hard to achieve, and it is even harder to maintain, but all that we do should be done with the Spirit of Excellence as our standard.

That phrase, Spirit of Excellence, is not an escape clause for slacking off on effort, attitude, character, mind set, or lack of success. It is rather the mark, goal, ultimate desire to be striven for.

Both of your quotes about perfection and mine about excellence strive for the same end result. And ultimately for us as welders, inspectors, fabricators, or whatever position we have, it is about public safety through the quality of our products.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By MRWeldSoCal (***)

Date 06-13-2014 18:16

You are right about who I work for. But poo runs down hill. The very two times I went and did VT at this particular company I pulled the problem welder aside and gave him a copy of the acceptance criteria and told him to check it all, not to move ahead if what he was doing wasnt right. I tell my students the same thing when they are learning to weld, espically with GMAW and OFW, both processes you have the time and control to not leave anything behind. Doesnt work out all that well, maybe in a perfect world with non lazy workers, just a shame they dont see the chain reaction that takes place from their bad work quality. A lot of what we do is military, and the company I work for does a lot for the NAVY and USAF so we are known to them as well and have those same contacts so when they hear we did a VT and it got by us, we still hear it.

Jordan